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Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: A True Dialogue of Persons

I

t was at an airport once where I encountered an extremely beautiful woman. Everything about her captivated my visual sense. For an instant, though it felt much longer, I was trapped in time and space as she walked past me in the opposite direction. Then time sped back up again as I responded the urgency of the moment, which my imagination had created. Moving along side of her, I said with a smile, “Hi, I’m David. What is your name?”

This is how all true relationship begin, do they not? Giving your name away is the first sacrificial act in a relationship, because it gives the other person the power to intimately call on you. I never learned this woman’s name, because she didn’t speak my language. She returned my smile, but it was followed by a look of disappointed remorse as she shook her head, fumbled her fingers in the air, and uttered a word I didn’t understand. We couldn’t enter into a dialogue, because I couldn’t speak her language, nor she mine.

Notice how the very first dialogue in sacred Scripture takes place when God is about to create humanity. Up until that point in Genesis chapter 1, God is uttering His creative word, but there is no dialogue of persons, until He says, “Let us make* human beings in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the tame animals, all the wild animals, and all the creatures that crawl on the earth” (Gn. 1:26).

We draw from this that the creation of humanity necessitated a conversation within the mutual will of the Holy Trinity that wasn’t necessary at any other point. It was this spoken dialogue about the nature, essence, and call of man that lovingly moved God to voluntarily act on our behalf.

This very first dialogue would go on to serve as a model of grace. For, at every point of salvation history, whenever God desired to act on our behalf, a necessary dialogue would first take place. Whether that dialogue was with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Job, Jonah, Jeremiah, Mary or Jesus, God always condescended to speak to His creatures in their own language; in the vernacular; in a manner that they would be able to acquiesce or respond to. Even after God steps into our life as one of us, Mary and Joseph teach Him how to communicate in Hebrew and Aramaic, so that He could understand and be understood by those in His family and community. The arch-Angel Gabriel tells Mary to name her son Yeshua (יֵשׁוּעַ, meaning ‘God saves’), which was a name that was that His family and community could understand. When Christ Jesus begins His ministry He proclaims and evangelizes the good news in the local vernacular. He renames Shimon ben Yonah (שמעון, meaning ‘heard’) Kephas (כאפא, meaning ‘rock’). The text of the Gospels often uses actual Aramaic words that Jesus spoke. When Jesus celebrates the last Seder Passover meal with His disciples, He doesn’t offer it in Greek or Latin; rather, it is in the local vernacular that He says, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me” (Luke 22:19).

Obviously, there is something very important to God about speaking to people in their own language. Moreover, it demonstrates the humility of God; how there is no learning curve necessary to encounter Him.

While the Eastern Catholic liturgy makes a great appeal to my senses, there always comes that part of the Mass that I don’t understand what is being spoken by the Priest, who is ‘in persona Christi’ (i.e. in the person of Christ), whether it be Syriac, Aramaic, or Greek. How is it that Christ is present, but I do not understand Him? How is it that Christ is present, but I cannot communicate with Him through the prayers of the Mass? The Traditional Latin Rite has never appealed to my senses, but the issue of the language barrier is there for me as well. God is present, but I cannot enter into verbal dialogue with Him.

Being that prayer is necessary for salvation, and dialogue with God mutually benefits the Divine and human desire for the latter’s salvation, there remains to be only one liturgical rite of the Sacrifice of the Mass that is always able to meet all people where they are and afford them the opportunity to dialogue with God no matter what country they are in as long as there is a Priest present who can celebrate the Mass in their language. In this way, the Novus Ordo Mass is truly catholic (universal) to all people.

While the Novus Ordo does, arguably, a miserable job in appealing to all of the senses, it is the most beautiful Mass in that it was constructed to meet all people where they are. In the Novus Ordo, there is no language barrier between the Creator and the created. There is no learning curve between God and man. There is no need to hold a book with the English translation of the Mass. Leave your language interpreter at home. The Novus Ordo allows one to truly ‘come as they are’ so that they might fully give themselves and fully receive their true self In Christ.

I had considered for a long time learning the Syriac language and joining an Eastern Rite parish, but one day I broke from my custom of going straight to my car after Mass. I lingered around in the common area and noticed that no one was speaking English. They were all in small circles socializing, laughing, and reconnecting with each other. A couple of people exchanged pleasantries with me, but to speak to me in English seemed like a burden for them. The next week I went to a Latin rite Mass and noticed how no one spoke Latin after the Mass, but neither was there anyone socializing or building community afterwards. The next week I went to a predominantly Black Catholic Church and noticed how afterwards everyone was speaking and English and in small circles socializing, laughing, and reconnecting with each other. A couple of people exchanged pleasantries with me, but to speak to an outsider seemed to be a task for them.

While observing one group of people speaking the same language outside of the Mass, as they do during the Mass, and another group of people speaking a different language outside of the Mass, than they do inside, I took one simple point from it. That, community needs a common language; they need to understand each other. No one speaks Latin in the gathering area after a Latin Mass. I’m not bashing the Traditional Latin Mass here, but simply demonstrating the great value of the Novus Ordo Mass; that it best facilitates the means to establish community, because it recognizes the beauty in meeting people you otherwise would not have met exactly where they are.

Altogether, perhaps, we should conclude in saying that a Catholic Church shouldn’t be measured by the love they have for their rite or liturgy, but, rather, by the love they have for friend, neighbor, and stranger. Perhaps, also, we should be quicker to measure a Catholic Church not by what is given and received during the Mass, but, rather, by what is given and received by the congregants once they are dismissed from it.

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4 PART SERIES ON ‘LOVING THE NOVUS ORDO MASS’:

  1. Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: Holy Things & Sacred Space
  2. Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: Presenting a Visible God
  3. Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: The Magnanimous Quad Presence of Christ Jesus
  4. Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: A True Dialogue of Persons
  5. Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: The Admirable Exchange Resolves Babel in the Mass

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Summary
Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: A True Dialogue of Persons
Article Name
Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: A True Dialogue of Persons
Description
There is a lot to love about the Novus Ordo Mass of the Latin Roman Rite, including the fact that affords the opportunity to dialogue with God without an interpreter.
Author
Publisher Name
Saint Dominic's Media, Inc.
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  • Ignatz

    Liturgy is the language of the church. If that language is too alien and strange, it can create cliquishness, act as a barrier, and keep those outside from feeling like they can come in.

    On the other hand, if it is too common and too ordinary, the group loses a good piece of its identity, which is what makes it attractive to outsiders in the first place.

    Balance is what is required, not two competing extreme factions, arguing for either all mystery or no mystery.

    I think the Tridentine needed very much to be reformed, and I prefer the Mass of Paul VI. But to some degree, the bishops of the 60s threw the baby out with bathwater. Just because I prefer English doesn’t mean I don’t want beauty or a sense of solemnity.

    I love churches that do the “New Mass” with incense, bells and chanting. And occasional Latin, like the Agnus Dei. There is no reason you can’t have both. There is no reason why doing the Mass in English mean you have to get rid of the Palestrina music and sing Kum Ba Ya (which, curiously, isn’t English).

    • VERY well stated Ignatz! My parish is definitely the latter paragraph, and it’s a balance that seems to make many people satisfied.

  • kcthomas

    The Mass is Mass whichever language it is said. A Catholic can understand and follow just because of the universality of our Church and faith. After the Vatican II, vernacular came to be used in all parts of the world. It was a big revolution. We cannot find fault with the past, as many things are done taking into account of the the then prevailing situation, the involvement of the faithful and to a little extent the obstinacy or selfishness of some of our clergy. Everything will work well in course of time.

    • Well said!

      • Baron Kaza

        Revolution should not be a term associated with the Church…

    • Frank

      You all are focusing only on the vernacular, and not on the other novelties that came into the Church in the 1960’s that have been, IMHO, more destructive to the liturgy, and to the catechesis of the Catholic Church than just Latin to the vernacular:

      Versus populum

      Communion in the hand

      laymen giving out Communion

      altar girls

      getting rid of the Sacrificial nature of the Mass

      contemporary music

      a liberal bible (the NAB) that has modernist and heretical footnotes.

      Etc, etc etc.

      I stopped assisting at the NO years ago, and prefer the TLM.

      A strong traditional pope at the helm of the Barque of Peter will be needed to get rid of the modernist, worldly, and man centered novelties not just in the liturgy but in upholding Divine and natural law teachings of the Catholic Church found in sacred tradition, Holy Scripture, and in the dogmatic Councils of the Catholic Church.

      • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

        Frank:… Your last paragraph… We need more that a strong Pope. The only thing that will retrieve the Church from its current crisis is the intervention of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

      • kcthomas

        Dear Frank, there will be many opinions and many suggestions when we undertake any project. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, we have a central organization and a central authority. The Church does not work on democracy as it believes in one God and in one Church. The changes brought about by Vatican II are not all liked by some. Changes come on account of the longtime clamour of the clergy and the faithful.
        Take” Communion on hand ” . Option has been necessitated by the demand from some western countries where people seemed to be afraid of transmission of some virus. They did not have the strong faith that Jesus’s Holy Blood is above all virus. If the Church is defiant, there will be chaos. So the best possible thing the Bishops thought was granting of option to receive on hand. I never receive on hand ,though I visited many countries where many receive only on hand.. Such changes do not affect the faith of the Church or the core of the teachings. Other items can be studied in depth ,based on experience. I hope it will happen in due time. Let us believe in the power of the Holy Spirit.

  • The Crisis: Why are Catholic churches closing so often across the West, and having to combine and reduce the number of Masses just to appear like a “vibrant community”? It’s hardly demographics. Let’s begin with just a few simple facts, culled from the writings of Pope Benedict XVI. (Copy this and pass it on to priests and parishioners).

    1. Because our churches for some 40+ years have been more and more desacralized by priests and parish councils. Fewer of our churches today possess those contemplative dimensions which had always been a main draw to both Catholics and non-Catholics alike. Catholics are not invited and admonished to come to visit the Blessed Sacrament, adore Christ in the Tabernacle, light a prayer candle for special intentions (what candles?!) or make the Stations of the Cross during the week, and whenever they can, as an expression of love, penance, and prayer for our beloved dead.

    2. Because too many priests no longer preach and teach specifically Catholic doctrines as found in the Catechisms of the Catholic Church; and so many priest’s sermons increasingly sound like simplified versions of PBS’ Mr. Rogers speaking only of an amorphous “love,” (or “be nice” theology) while ignoring so much else that Christ taught in the Gospels. Moreover Catholic doctrine is no longer proposed from the pulpit as the only remedy for the decadence of our culture (with concrete examples, especially as found in the ubiquitous media) nor for the other relevant crises of the human spirit today: hyper-technologies so dangerous to the soul, unjust wars, wanton sexuality and violence, the specifically spiritual neglect of the poor, and the moral law.

    3. Because the Faithful are no longer admonished to go to Confession and warned not to receive Communion while in a state of Mortal Sin. As a consequence many Catholics do not feel themselves to be sinners at all, and so why get out of bed on Sunday mornings to bring families to Mass at all? How many priests, the Saints say, will find themselves trembling before the Judgement Seat of Christ for not having exercised their ministry of Reconciliation frequently and piously and telling sinners (all of us!) the Truth about Sin, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and the Lord’s Coming again?!

    4. Because while priests rush through the liturgy of the Eucharist, they often drag on and on when it comes to banal sermons unrelated to Catholic dogmas (longer than the Sermon on the Mount in many cases!), and bad, prolonged singing, superfluous processions and the like. The liturgy of the Eucharist, which is supposed to culminate in the Consecration and Elevation of the Sacred Gifts (The elevation of the Body and Blood of our Lord when “time is supposed to stand still” for Catholics) offered to the Father and for our adoration is also and criminally rushed like lightning—and so therefore almost meaningless to very many, especially the young. What does this say about the priest’s priorities and poor theological training? Is it any wonder churches have been closing for so long and continue to this day?

    Priests of the Church can reverse all of this if they have a will to. Or answer to God for souls if you do not will to.

    • I love these points Stephen! Point 1 is very strong, because I think it can apply to every diocese in the the US. Let’s not fool ourselves!

  • blablabla

    Holy Smokes. A Catholic blogger that actually likes the norvus ordo mass. That’s great. I like this article, especially the first paragraph. It’s different.

    • lol thanks. That thing hes holder either has to be wine or oil I suppose.

      • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

        David: “It looks like wine or oil, I hope its oil……..”
        Am I missing something here? it looks like the Priest is Saying ‘Mass’ but the contents do not look like wine. It looks more like olive oil, anything but wine.
        Is this simply another NO abuse ? I have heard of cookies and coke being ‘consecrated’ in a NO, children’s Mass, but olive oil??

  • Vickie

    What a great article!

  • A J MacDonald Jr

    It would be nice to have the old mass in the vernacular, as opposed to Latin… and the Novus Ordo.

  • Louis Figueroa

    The Novus Ordo is indeed more anthropocentric. It attempts to meet man where he is and utilizes vernacular; consequently, as you mentioned, to the sacrifice of the other senses. Interestingly, this does not have have to be the case. Chant can still be utilized in the Novus Ordo, as can incense and many other attributes which were common in the Extraordinary Form. Corpus Christi Watershed ( http://www.ccwatershed.org ) writes about the use of use of music, propers and the like in the Novus Ordo. It really does not have to be an either or scenario.

    One fact people may also find interesting is that the priest may also celebrate the Novus Ordo facing the altar. This is actually allowed, as is its celebration in Latin. The chalice veil may still be used. There are many things from the Vetus Ordo which may be brought forward.

    I understand completely where you are coming from in terms of understanding of language. Latin takes some time to get used to, as does using a missal which is bilingual, but truth be told, if one practices it a bit, they will get used to it. It also helps if a person is familiar with the rite observed. For example, I do normally attend the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, but having become familiar with reading and praying in a language other than my native tongue when I attended the Divine Liturgy with the Melkites I was able to pray and follow. Although the Rite was different, I have become familiar with listening and reading between my language and language of the Rite. That being said, I have always found people being welcoming and talkative after Mass or Divine Liturgy.

    I guess what I am saying is all things require practice. I was intimidated when I first tried anything outside of the Novus Ordo, despite my studying, but now I am able to jump in even if I do not speak the language.

    Please bear in mind, I am not trying to say anything against the piece you have written. I think it is wonderful, and I am impressed that you have tried other Rites, but do continue to try them a bit. I have found great reward and understanding of the faith in doing so. I even learned more about the Novus Ordo. For example, in my reading and exploring rites, I learned that the Melkites were actually the 1st to propose that Mass be celebrated in vernacular during Vatican II. Pretty cool, eh? There is much more, but I guess that is why I am big at continuing to look beyond =)

    • Thank you Louis! Great comment.

      As for me, as I said, I gave great thought and prayer towards the effort of learning the language, and it was definitely doable – as I wasn’t going to learn more than what I needed to know to pray the Mass with understanding, but it was AFTER the Mass was my issue. I couldn’t speak the language. I felt like an outsider – to no fault of them.

      My parish now incorporates Latin during three or four of the prayer/songs at Mass. I’ve learned them all except for the Agnus Dei.

      • MJK

        “The Novus Ordo is indeed more anthropocentric”

        Spot on! and illustrative of the problem with the New Mass and the tendency endemic in the church over the last fifty years. It most likely has its roots in the unadulterated acceptance of the philosophy of personalism, which when not properly restrained by historical consciousness and Sacred Tradition can invert the Imago Dei thus turning religion into nothing more than anthropocentric sentimental humanitarianism.

        For some 2000 years, the main and ultimate focus and telos of the Roman Catholic Mass was to witness and be led to by the priest to the ultimate sacrifice — the sacrificial love of the Divine bestowed upon those who worship at his altar.

        But most importantly, and most certainly it was NOT ABOUT MEETING PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE BUT TAKEN THEM BEYOND THEIR PROFANE EXISTENCE into the SACRED.

        From my perspective, on most levels the NEW MASS has profaned that which was and should always be most SACRED. I am happy your find with reintroducing some sacred elements and novelties back into the church services you attend, but if the TLM was prevalent there would be no need for those touches of class in what has come to be a rather humdrum profane communal meal…

        • When you say the Mass was not about meeting people where they are but ‘taking’ them beyond their profane existence into the sacred, let’s not get caught up into the protestant tendency of either/or – that’s a fallacy. Rather, let’s recognize the Catholic principle of and/both here. To take someone beyond, it goes without saying that first you have to meet them where they are. It also goes without saying that the Mass doesn’t intend to leave us how we were found. Let’s not split hairs here.

          • MJK

            Actually, the problem with “and/both” here as you’re presenting it is that it needs to be reconciled with the principle of noncontradiction.

            Distinguishing the profane from the sacred in no way results in “getting caught up into the protestant tendency of either/or.” Making proper and necessary distinctions is not the same as positing an “either/or fallacy” whatever you mean by that.

            When you say “it goes without saying that first you have to meet them where they are…” I say: no, it does not! because it can lead to a corrosive form of subjectivism. The priest leads those most open and reverent through liturgy to experience in and meditate on the ultimate sacrifice. Along with being salvific, Christ’s death and resurrection was aspirant.

            If you want to reference or claim a “protestant tendency” is not in making proper and necessary distinctions, but could be found in some of the novelties associated with the New Mass….

          • I think I understand you more fully now. Thank you!

  • patrick

    I am glad the NO works for you. For most people, it doesn’t. What you say about the vernacular seems intuitively true, but when you analyze the effect of the NO Mass, it is clear that it has failed to communicate the Catholic Truths as well as the Tridentine Mass did. look at the reality – Catholics before and after the Council who attend the Tridentine Mass are far more likely to believe things like the True Presence in the Eucharist, and all the Catholic Truths than their NO counterparts. Moreover, they are more likely to be married only once, and be open to as many children as God gives them. I could go on, but I think you get my point. The Latin language was never a barrier to communicating the truths of the Church, in fact, you could easily argue that the vernacular is. Happy Saint Patrick’s Day.

    • I hear that argument a lot about how the NO doesn’t seem to have the same connection that the Tridentine Mass did on the faith life and obedience of Catholics. It sounds a bit like Darwin’s Theory of Evolution. It’s non-sequitur. No one can prove that 1 + 1 = 2 in this case. It’s less than circumstantial evidence to actually say that because this happened, that then followed. There are sooooo many other things that happened in society that led to our current state; namely, Catholic education, R.C.I.A., PSR, lack of institutional controls after Vatican II, lack of screening of seminarians.

      As far as your first point goes about ‘most people’; I don’t know most people, so I don’t know what is working for how many people in the global Catholic Church.

      • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

        David: “There are soooo many things………namely, Catholic Education the RCIA, lack of institutional controls after VII, lack of screening of Seminarians…”
        You are right. it Is the sense of history and Tradition that gives the insight needed to see these things occurred immediately after VII.
        Catholic Education in our (western Australia) Catholic Schools is not short of being a joke. The RCIA programme is diabolical in what it doesn’t teach. And we all know the quality of some seminaries. (See Michael S Rose’ book, Goodbye good Men)

  • Emily

    “Altogether, perhaps, we should conclude in saying that a Catholic Church shouldn’t be measured by the love they have for their rite or liturgy, but, rather, by the love they have for friend, neighbor, and stranger. Perhaps, also, we should be quicker to measure a Catholic Church not by what is given and received during the Mass, but, rather, by what is given and received by the congregants once they are dismissed from it.”

    This is not accurate. Our love of neighbor comes from our love of God. Period. Naturally, the love for liturgy, the greatest prayer given to the human race to honor, glorify and connect with The Almighty, is essential to go forth with the grace to selflessly love our neighbors as ourselves.

    “There is no prayer or good work so great, so pleasing to God, so useful to us as the Mass.”
    –St. Lawrence Justinian

    • Thanks Emily. I don’t see any disagreement.

    • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

      Emily: Quite right … when we get our s… together with our God we can go forth, ‘with the grace to selflessly love our neighbours as our selves’

  • Emily

    The day the Church abandons her universal tongue [Latin] is the day before she returns to the catacombs.
    -Pope Pius XII

    Latin is the immutable language of the Western Church.
    -Pope John XXIII

    The Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.
    Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia, February 22, 1962 (just eight months before the opening of Vatican II), chap. 13

    The use of the Latin language … is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
    Second Vatican Council, Sacrosanctum Concilium
    (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy), para. 36.1

    We address especially the young people: In an epoch when in some areas, as you know, the Latin language and the human values are less appreciated, you must joyfully accept the patrimony of the language which the Church holds in high esteem and must, with energy, make it fruitful. The well-known words of Cicero, “It is not so much excellent to know Latin, as it is a shame not to know it” [Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine, quam turpe nescire (Brutus, xxxvii.140)] in a certain sense are directed to you. We exhort you all to lift up high the torch of Latin which is even today a bond of unity among peoples of all nations.
    Pope John Paul II, 1978

    • Just remember, these quotes don’t rise to the level of dogma or even doctrine. The use of Latin in the Mass is not something that was divinely revealed. It is not part of the Deposit of Faith. It doesn’t require assentation of the faithful.

      • Alex

        The same goes for the vernacular, which was not mandate but merely allowed for PARTS of the mass by Vatican II.

      • Emily

        True, but I think it would be folly not to heed the words of men who were actually chosen to lead and guide His Church. Especially when there is such unity in their thinking. And these are only a few that I have cited.

        • Don’t get me wrong Emily, I’m not against ANY rite of a Church that is in union with Rome. This series of articles is simply to show how a Mass, which a loud minority of Catholics seem to hate, contains Christ (as the Holy Eucharist), beauty, and truth just as every other rites – though admittedly has been abused by some, just as the Tridentine Mass was abused by bad priests.

          • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

            David: It matters little that a minority of the Church are against the NO. What is important is that the ’cause’ is justified.
            When Christ returns, will he find any Faith among men? I know where I would rather be when that time comes. I don’t have any desire to be among the majority. I much prefer to belong to the remnant Faithful Church

      • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

        David: Revelation/deposit of the Faith come from the Scriptures and from Tradition. As for the Latin not being divinely revealed, you are right. Authority for the Latin however rises out of the traditions of the Church. A gradual evolution over the ages sustained and blessed by Holy Spirit. It is an authentic evolution.
        The NO ignores tradition instead foisting a revolution of the Churches Liturgy upon the Church.
        It Is more of the sense of the Sacred traditions that eludes you?

  • Steve

    Novus Ordo = Man centered, banal and insipid music and a “Hey there, look at me” posture by those on or around the altar (table). Not nearly as dignified or respectful to Our Lord as the Extraordinary form in Latin. Truly.

    • That is definitely a perspective. I think there is an opportunity for a priest to glorify himself, whether he is facing you or has his back towards you. Since I’ve been a Catholic I’ve only known of one priest who ‘seemed’ to make the whole Mass about him. This was also the priest who called his priest friend in Florida his husband on ‘accident’ during a homily. But having been a Protestant I know what a man-centered worship is about. I’ve never felt such a thing at my last two parishes.

      • Baron Kaza

        I have had countless experiences of abuse at the NO mass, in fact I left the Church because of it. I returned to the Church because of the Traditional Latin Mass. The NO is a man made invention with the help of six protestant ministers, and under the guise of Bugnini who was suspected of Free Mason allegiances. The Mass IS NOT about community it is about the sacrifice at Calvary, when I attended NO mass it was always about the people and never Christ, with the Priest with his back towards Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Can you tell me Dave why the Traditional Orders (FSSP, ICKSP) are the ones that are thriving, while the NO’s are not. Lex Orendi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. Despite what the Pope says we are going back, going forward has result desolation of the Church, the Liturgy and the Faithful

        • RE: “The Mass IS NOT about community it is about the sacrifice at Calvary,”

          You’ve fallen into the fallacy of either/or here, when you should apply the Catholic principle of and/both.

          And I don’t respond to Dave. It’s not my name. My mother gave me the name of a great King.

          • Baron Kaza

            I have not fallen into anything my observations are first person and have been proven out. The mindless chatter and constant applause at the NO, asking parish members to stand up and introduce themselves during mass, this NEVER happens at the TLM. So David why are the Traditional orders filling up while the non-Traditional orders dying out, same goes for the convents.

          • Baron Kaza

            “This was also the priest who called his priest friend in Florida his husband on ‘accident’ during a homily.” This false priest needs to defrocked and removed immediately…the gay clique in the Church needs to be crushed

          • I agree. Before I left the parish I wrote a letter to the Church council. The response was ending their contract with me to host the parish website. The ‘sister’ there sent me an email asking me to pray for them. I do.

          • What is empirical isn’t always true. I think we can agree with that. I haven’t seen those abuses you mention. Those are tragic, but they say nothing about the rubrics, but they say everything about the priests, congregation, and Bishop where those abuses are allowed. Let’s throw the dirty baby out, but keep the tub.

            I think Catholics are being drawn to more reverently approach the divine, because the world has shown us what it is. This hour demands an accounting and a heart on fire for Christ. We have witnessed and are witnessing what a lukewarm faith looks like. It’s sad that people have abused the NO to the degree that some people have completely abandoned it.

            Again, the point of these series of articles is to show that there is beauty there. I can’t teach application. I can only point.

            I haven’t had much of an opportunity these last 9 years to become jaded. Many of you have, especially you faithful cradle-catholics. My parish before this one was a Dominican parish. It was beautiful. We kneeled to receive Christ and there were no abuses. I moved, and the parish I am at now – it is a diocesan parish, but – other kneeling – it is very orthodox – lots of Latin prayers.

      • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

        David: A telling comment… “Since I’ve been a Catholic” A reason perhaps that you do not yet have that sense of history or tradition….

    • Alphonsus_Jr

      True, but I beg you to abandon every trace of Conciliar-speak; that is, the thoroughly Orwellian newspeak of “Ordinary Form” and “Extraordinary Form.” Related:

      http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2013-0808-tofari-ordinary-form.htm

  • Atsa4you

    It seems as though a great deal of, if not all of the emphasis of this article pertains to the “communication” that occurs AFTER the Mass, as part of what is referred to as “community building” rather than whether the Mass itself is said in native tongue or Latin. As for me, I care more that what is said during the Sacrifice of the Mass, is universal, rather than what happens after in the social hall. I care less about community building or chatting after the Mass in my native tongue, than being confident that the consecration of the Eucharist has been accomplished respectfully, properly, consistently and solemnly, and I am most assured of that during the TLM. As it stands, during the NO Mass, if I am in Madrid, I need a translation, if in Vietnam, a translation…anywhere that English is not native, I need a translation. If Latin were used as it was Universally, prior to VII, the Mass is easily followed. What happens in the Social Hall afterwards, is just a challenge.

    • After the Mass we are ‘sent’. Therefore, there is an and/both principle to be applied about community inside and outside of the Mass. I like your point the beauty of a universal language. It’s a tragedy that Latin isn’t required anymore.

      • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

        David: “Its a pity that Latin isn’t required anymore” Mate, I feel that Latin is required more now than at any time in the past.
        That, ‘mate’ is as in ‘G’day mate’ lol

  • Chattykate

    I speak one language: English. I have been to Mass in Peru, where it was said in Spanish, and the missals were in Spanish, and although I had taken Spanish language classes in school, I could only catch a word or two. I have been to Mass in Italy, where it was said in Italian, and the missals were in Italian, a language I don’t understand. I have been to Mass in Montreal, where it was said in French, and the missals were in French, a language I do not understand. I belong to a Traditional Latin Mass community, where Mass is said in Latin, however my missal has the words of the Mass in English next to the Latin. What seems more universal, a Mass that is said in many different languages, where a visitor may not be able to understand, or a Mass that is said in one language throughout the world, where you can carry your own missal and follow the exact words every time?

    • Let’s not make the exception the rule here. Many of us travel and encounter situations where language presents a barrier for dialogue. What I’m talking about here one thing that makes the NO beautiful is that for those who speak the common language of that area, how they don’t need to learn a new language to pray the Mass. How there is no learning curve to intelligibly offer oneself in the Mass. If one wants to learn a new language or work through that learning curve – fine. There are Masses in Syriac, Greek, Latin – you name it, but if not, the NO allows one to come as they are. This may be helpful to people who have learning disabilities even.

      Let’s not get trapped into either/or reasoning here. The Catholic faith is full of various rites through with one can reverently give and receive.

      • Atsa4you

        You miss the point entirely David. Its not only about the language used as enabled by the NO rite, its an entire host of other “slippery slope” liberties taken with the liturgy, when the Mass is offered in the vernacular. That pertains to hideous abuses of music, dancing around the altar, communion in both forms distributed by laypersons,. There are a host of liturgical abuses as a result of the post VII NO.

        • You’re talking about a lack of controls over the rite. Okay. Imagine if American Football didn’t have rules. That doesn’t mean the sport itself was a bad invention. Things need form, structure, rules, and order – and those things need enforcement. Don’t throw up the NO Mass just because you had a bunch of liberals decided to play fast and loose.

          • Atsa4you

            LOL. The entire objective of VII was “Aggiornamento” or modernization, bringing up to date to meet current needs. Once that Pandora’s Box was opened, its been a slippery slope ever since. The very things you mention, “form, structure, rules and order” are the very reason many of us here prefer the Extraordinary Form in Latin, and precisely what has largely been abandoned by most of the Church through the NO. The NO represents the Protestantization of the Catholic Church.

          • People who were never protestant like to call the NO protestant-like. If Christ is present at the NO as the Holy Eucharist, in-persona Christi through the Priest, in the written word, and with those gathered – it is not protestant.

            Should I ever discover that the Quad Presence of Christ is not with us at the Novus Ordo Mass, I will agree that the NO represents a protestantization of the Catholic Church, and I’ll cease being a Catholic.

          • Alphonsus_Jr

            The Novus Ordo service was created with the consultation of six Protestant ministers. It’s a consciously Protestantized fabrication. Read, for example, The Rhine Flows Into the Tiber, by Fr. Ralph Wiltgen. Also see The Ottaviani Intervention.

          • Alphonsus_Jr

            I beg you to abandon every trace of Conciliar-speak; that is, the thoroughly Orwellian newspeak of “Ordinary Form” and “Extraordinary Form.” Related:

            http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2013-0808-tofari-ordinary-form.htm

            &

          • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

            Alphonsus: True…. But the extraordinary form is truly extraordinary whereby the ordinary form is very ordinary…..speaking in the vernacular.

          • Dick Prudlo

            The rad’s tossed out the Mass of all ages, not because of its order but because it was true worship. In its place is a farce.

  • Alex

    “One cannot manufacture a liturgical movement … but one can help contribute to its development by striving to reassimilate the spirit of the liturgy and by defending publicly what one has thus received … What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it– as in a manufacturing process — with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.” Cardinal Ratzinger

    • Great quote!

      • Alex

        You do realize he’s calling the Novus Ordo banal and fabricated liturgy?

        • Well come on. Did Pope Benedict XVI abolish the Novus Ordo Mass? Did he use the NO rite for Papal Masses? There is one guy who calls his wife’s new dress ugly and then proceeds to go out on a date with her, and there is the the other guy who refused to go out with her wife when she is wearing an ugly dress, and then there is a guy whose wife bought an ugly dress and he shows her what she can do to make it look better. BVII is the latter guy. He showed us how to the NO Mass can be reverently done.

          • Alex

            He attempted a “reform of the reform” by trying to bring it closer to the traditional liturgy. The closer you get the Novus Ordo to the traditional mass the better and more authentically Roman it is. An immediate shift back to the Tridentine Mass would be abrupt and unhelpful.

            Bugnini’s Novus Ordo Missae has been an abject failure… except from Bugnini’s perspective. It probably did just what he wanted it to do.

          • Joseph said what man meant for evil, God meant for good.

          • Alphonsus_Jr

            Speaking of the “reform of the reform” and its desperate “hermeneutic of continuity,” see:

            http://www.cfnews.org/page10/page26/hermeneutic_of_continuity.html

          • Alphonsus_Jr

            As a consciously Protestantized, ecumenical fabrication acceptable even to those heretics known as Lutherans, the Novus Ordo service is inherently irreverent (even if committed in Latin and according to its rubrics.) I beg you, read The Catechism of the Crisis in the Church by Fr. Matthias Gaudron (go to Angelus Press) and Open Letter to Confused Catholics by Abp. Marcel Lefebvre (also on Angelus Press). These books lay out hard truths, but of course not sedevacantist or schismatic.

            Traditional Catholics (real ones, unlike outfits like CMTV), have simply stayed on the same road the Church has always traveled. Tragically, this road seems quite foreign and indeed dangerous to those processed by the Judas Council Revolution.

          • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

            David: “Did Pope Benedict XVI abolish the Novus Ordo Mass?” In those circumstances it would be imprudent to do so. More like a bull in a China Shop. It is a far more complex problem to solve than outright and immediate abolition. A prudent person would know the consequences of such an action. He did make somewhat of a start to that end with Summorum Pontificum. You seem to forget the involvement of Satan in all of this.

  • William McEnaney

    Mr. Gray, please remember Canon XIII from Trent’s seventh session because it forbids the Novus Ordo (http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm) by forbidding anyone, including any pope, to invent a new rite of Mass. Abp. Bugnini and his committee invented the Novus Ordo.

    • So your argument is that Vatican II was a heretical council? I hear that argument from Sedecaticanists.

      • Atsa4you

        One need not be a sedevacantist to believe that

      • Frank

        Vatican II was a legitimate Council, albeit a pastoral one. It was truly a revolutionary Council unlike the Twenty before it because it promoted worldly, relativist and modernist ideology that was condemned for centuries prior to it. While the twenty Councils of the Church were in harmony with each other on dogma, liturgy, Canon Law etc.

        • At minimum then it sounds illegitimate if it introduced all of that. Can you follow your statements through to their logical conclusion?

          • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

            David: Because it introduced all that, it must be illegitimate??
            Can you follow that through to its logical conclusion?

      • Atsa4you

        If anyone doubts at all the impact that Vatican II had on the Catholic Church, and/or wants to debate or interpret what “Aggiornamento” meant or intended, and what effect modernization has had, its easy to just analyze the statistical evidence since VII. If anyone can identify positive trends here, lets discuss it:

        http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html

        1965-Present Day

        • As a historian, I never isolate a series of events to a singular impetus. There was failure, incompetence, and absence in the Church for quite a long time prior to and after Vatican II that brought about this season we are starting to come out of now (hopefully).

          • raffer

            Wow,how do you make out we are coming out of it. Its getting exponentially worse. I now have started going to the mass in Latin because of what’s happening

          • It just seems to me from what I read and what I see that the younger Catholics are rejecting the liberal agenda in the Church. While it’s true, we still need a certain generation of Catholics to die off – and they are going to go to their grave swinging – their time is almost up. We hit a bump in the road with Pope Francis in some ways – especially vocations, but he’s not a 40 year old man himself.

          • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

            David: That is a strange comment to make. You seem to think that once the current batch of Catholic fall from the Perch that things will improve, inferring that they are the ones responsible for the malaise that inflicts the Church.
            It is the current batch that sustains the Church in the face of a poorly catechised younger generation. Your comment smacks of sheer arrogance. You cant seem wait for all the old fools to die out so your generation can take over… arrogance and stupidity joined.
            “We hit a bump in the road with Pope Francis In some ways-especially vocations”…..??????
            This is the Lack of a sense of history and tradition I spoke about earlier

          • Atsa4you

            Its hard to refute that the decline in the Catholic Church began immediately after VII. Yes there were and are societal deficits as well that caused a general decline in all things church, but another commenter here brought up a fact that reinforces the statistics, and that is that in the FSSP and SSPX as well as other Traditional Orders under persecution by the Vatican, the growth and appeal to the Traditional is quite dramatic in comparison with the NO seminaries. Now it has been said, that Francis may be causing a resurgence in some vocations, but that also begs the question “for the right reasons”..just sayin…we are NOT coming out of anything my friend. If anything we are reeling towards schism.

          • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

            David: …..”There was failure, incompetence, and absence in the Church for quite a long time prior to and after VII.”
            Sorry to disillusion you, but there was not failure, incompetence and absence IN THE CHURCH before VII. Individual members or groups maybe (as there will always be given the human component) but certainly not the Church.
            From personal experience I know that 80% of Catholic attended weekly mass as apposed to about 15/20% now.

            Convents were full and all Catholic Schools were fully staffed by teaching Religious (either Brothers or Nuns)
            Priests were abundant and vocations increasing every year.
            Respect for the B/Sacrament was universal (every body genuflected on entering or leaving the Church or when ever they passed before the Tabernacle)

            The ‘decay’ set in almost immediately after the introduction of the ‘new ‘mass.

          • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

            David: “As a Historian, I never isolate a series of events to a singular impetus”… From a Historian point of view maybe but having personally witnessed an event and then a cause, of course you or anyone can. Otherwise you would second guess everything that your eyes and brain tell you

  • thetimman

    Is this an Onion article?

  • Carolyn C

    Oh no. I thought you were someone else. how disappointing.

  • Well, since Novus Ordo Catholics now dialogue with Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Animists, Agnostics and Atheists, I suppose it is entirely fitting that they finally open a dialogue with God. (Now THAT is ecumenism in action! Maybe you can meet God somewhere in the middle…)
    The problem is that the Mass is not a conversation, but a Sacrifice. God does not desire your jabbering. He DEMANDS your worship. This is why the Novus Ordo is such a travesty and sacrilege. God has NOTHING to learn from you. Stop the chitter-chatter, close your mouth, and LISTEN. Pray the prayers that your fathers’ fathers prayed and stop trying to be clever and original before God. That is a sign of pride.

    • If Mass is a prayer, then it is a dialogue. No one is talking about yakyak LOL. My goodness you guys from the Remnant Newsfeed are so polemical.

      • William McEnaney

        Mr. Gray’s comment reminds me of what a priest said when a woman complained that she didn’t understand Latin. “Mam,” he replied, “I wasn’t praying to you.” Maybe she didn’t understand Latin. So what? Hand missals for the Traditional Latin Mass include translations for the ordinary of the Mass, the secrets, the collects, and the readings.

        Many would tell you that they don’t like it when the priest’s back faces them during the Traditional Latin rite of Mass, TLRM. Maybe they even think he’s being rude when he faces the altar. But during the TLRM, everyone, including the priest, faces Christ, since He’s in the tabernacle.

        Before Benedict XVI revised the Novus Ordo rite, a Memorial Acclamation said, “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again” when He was already present on the altar. In the TLRM, the phrase “Mysterium Fidei” stands for Transubstantiation and the Real Presence, for something Protestants already believe in. I mention this because Pope Francis plants to repeal Benedict’s improvements to the Novus Ordo rite.

        • Isn’t it funny how everyone thinks it is rude for the priest to turn his back on the people, but no one makes a peep when he turns his back on the Eucharistic Christ? And yet they claim they are worshipping Christ. I think that in most cases they are simply worshipping themselves, and the Novus Ordo is an apt instrument for this.

          • William McEnaney

            As I told some people at the liberal parish I grew up in, if the priests want to turn the sanctuary into a stage, they should remove the tabernacle. In some churches where the only tabernacle sits on a side altar, folk groups block it. During a Novus Ordo I attended before I found the TLRM, after the celebrant began to say the Our Father, the folk group began to sing it. So the priest stopped talking to sing it, too.

            Before the priest dismissed the congregation from a Life Teen Mass I attended years ago, two boys carried a girl to the Communion rail while the second boy imitated the sound of an ambulance siren. The “paramedics” put her down at the sanctuary entrance, the priest knelt, looked into her mouth, and told the congregation that he was checking her spiritual wellness.

      • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

        David David David. The Yak yak you speak of is precisely what is happening. I don’t know about you but I seek to defend the Church that I love. That is not being argumentative. remember that it is the VII usurpers who wish to impose a ‘new’ church in stead of the Church founded by Our Lord.
        The Mass is a prayer but it is more than that. It is the Sacrifice of the Son to the Father, (and thereby it is Holy) in reparation and atonement.

      • Sorry. Spent 29 years in the Novus Ordo. Saw nothing BUT “yakyak” – especially from the priests! Those who claim to belong to the Church Militant need to become a little more militant when the rights of God are at stake… Wake up man! There’s a war against God going on, and they’ve taken it into the Holy of Holies itself!
        Prayer is NOT dialogue! It is entirely one way: God does not pray to us. We thank God, we offer adoration, we make reparation, and we make petition. These are the four ends of Mass. Period.

        • Laurence Charles Ringo

          Interesting. So now you feel qualified to establish the parameters of prayer,and dare to tell us that prayer is in fact NOT conversation with Our Father? There is something seriously wrong with you,Kalb.Seriously.Seek help–NOW.

    • Laurence Charles Ringo

      So is presuming to judge others,Jeff Kalb.Do you even hear yourself,sir?

  • William McEnaney

    No, Mr. Gray, I’m not arguing that Vatican II was a heretical council, partly because I doubt that it was a council. But I believe that the Novus Ordo needs to be abolished because of the Canon 13 from Trent Session 7 forbids it. Suppose that Quo obligates Roman Rite priests to use only the Traditional Latin rite of Mass, since it’s the received and approved rite of Mass for the Roman part of the Catholic Church. Then since the Novus Ordo rite is not the received, approved rite of Mass for the Roman part of the Church, any priest who says Mass using the Novus Ordo rite is disobeying St. Pius V by using it. Since St. Pius V used Quo primum to bind his successors, no pope has any right to replace the Traditional Latin rite of Mass. Thank God Paul VI didn’t replace it. But many priests act as though he did.

    Please listen to Canon Gregory Hesse, Cardinal Stickler’s former secretary, who earned a doctorate in Canon Law.

    • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

      William: I pray that David will take time to read Canon 13..7. Saint Pope Pius the 5th was quite emphatic in his pronouncement. The is no doubt he was speaking from the Chair of Peter and that he was speaking infallibly.

      • William McEnaney

        Geoff, I’ve met some priests who disagree with you and me about Canon 13 from Session 7 of Trent, since they’re sure it’s not forbidding the Novus Ordo. Still, Fr. Hesse, Fr. Paul Kramer, Mr. John Salza, and some articles convince me that canon does forbid it. Naturally, I pray for David, too. But I need you and my other friends here to remember that, since I’m only a theologically well-read layman with a philosophy degree, I’m not an expert in any subject we’re talking about. Please check what I tell you, and if I’m mistaken please show me that I’m mistaken. I’m the most fallible person I know.

  • Alphonsus_Jr

    The Novus Ordo service is the supreme expression of novelty flowing from the Hippie Council Revolution, aka the Judas Council Revolution, aka Vatican II. It’s also a consciously Protestantized fabrication, indeed concocted with the consultation of six Protestant ministers. Thus, for example, those heretics known as Lutherans have said they’d have no problem using it.

    Further, as a Protestantized product of ecumania, the Novus Ordo service would be unrecognizable as Catholic to Catholics before Vatican II. Think on that.

    Moreover, objective data reveals that the Novus Ordo service is destructive of the Faith, as upwards of 70% of Novus Ordo participants no longer believe in the Real Presence.

    Much more could be said to prove that the Novus Ordo service is soaked in Protestantism, novelty, and indeed poison; and it’s said in such books as The Catechism of the Crisis in the Church, by Fr. Matthias Gaudron. Also see:

    • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

      Alphonsus: Spot On. The 2nd Vatican Council has achieved what Cranmer set out to do to the Catholic Church in England 500 years ago. The only difference is VII was more successful. As for 70% of Catholics not believing in the real and Corporeal of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament…. I Think it is closer to 90%. I know of Priests that don’t believe. Their idea of the ‘real presence’ is when 2 or more are gathered…He is present in that circumstance but that is akin to having a photograph of a loved one, as apposed to that loved one being in the same room with you. I pray for David and his Family

  • Matt

    90% of Catholics stopped attending for a reason. The novus or do is as ludicrous and banal as that “vase” that priest is holding.

    • William McEnaney

      In the preface to Msgr. Klaus Gamber’s book “Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its Problems and Background,” then Cardinal Ratzinger called the Novus Ordo “a banal on-the-spot product” and “fabricated liturgy.”

    • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

      Matt: I asked the same question about that Vase. And is that Olive oil in the Vase??? It certainly is not wine

  • Mark O’Keefe

    Mass is a sacrifice to God. Church is a place for prayer, not socializing. The NO Mass in various vernacular languages become ipso facto segregation. Separate Mass for English, Spanish, etc. In the TLM, using a Latin/English, Spanish, etc missal we can all worship as one. Don’t understand Latin? That is why you buy a missal. When you hear the Latin Mass enough, you learn the words. The Novus Ordo is a protestant “Mass”, maybe you have not fully converted, thus you are inclined to go to the Novus Ordo.

    • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

      Mark:
      Right On.. My 7 year old Grand son can read Latin ( and understands it because he has been taught to do so) In any event the vernacular is printed on the opposite page.
      As for the Mass being a ‘Holy Sacrifice’…Spot on again. Those of the Novus Ordo variety much prefer to call it the ‘supper of the Lord’ or something equally bizarre. Most have no concept of it being a ‘Sacrifice’
      There was a time when If I travelled to Spain or Italy or South America, or any other place where the Mass was said, one would immediately understand what was going on. Now because of the vernacular they might as well be from another Planet. For that reason I cant understand why people like David cant see that. Theirs is hardly a ‘universal’ language for a universal Church in that sense.
      The protestantization of the Mass???? You bet it is.

  • Alphonsus_Jr

    Having read many of the comments here, along with Mr. Gray’s articles, it’s abundantly clear that the Hippie Council Revolution, aka the Judas Council Revolution, aka Vatican II indeed ushered in a new religion. Part of the radically insidious, thoroughly diabolical quality of this new religion is not only that it expertly mixes truth with lies, but that it cultivates the delusion in its adherents that they’re actually practicing Catholicism. They’re drowning in the shallows and they don’t even know it. Such is today’s diabolical disorientation.

    • Laurence Charles Ringo

      Wow…Look,everyone! Almighty God,the true Judge of mankind,has a new name—Alphonsus_Jr.!!!

  • Marcus

    David,

    Although, I myself am a rad traditionalist, I found your article well thought out and interesting. It’s
    nice to hear an intelligent defense of the NO, even if it’s one with which I disagree. I imagine that for individuals who have not grown up with the TLM, the Latin can be intimidating; yet, I don’t
    think that that’s a reason to opt for the easier rout. For one thing, using a missal is relatively
    easy, especially after a little practice. For another, our actions should be proportionate to the ends/goals for which they are done. Should they not be as solemn as possible? We are participating in the Divine life of Love! Since God is mysterious, should we not expect the ritual and language that the Trinity uses to communicate with Itself (Jesus offering Himself to the Father) also to be mysterious.

    After all, your examples about God using the vernacular to communicate with his people were about God tending after the welfare of his people; whereas, the celebrant of the Mass is Christ communicating with his Father. We participate by uniting ourselves with the priest in spirit, offering ourselves with Him to the Father. I think that the error to seep into the subconscious of man since VII, is the idea that the congregation and the priest are the celebrants. If that were true, you would indeed need to ensure that the rituals were simple enough for everyone to participate equally. Traditionally, participation meant a union of intention. For example, Saint Ignatius “participated” in the mass by reading the gospel accounts of Christ’s passion. If memory serves me, Padre Pio recommended
    that people “participate” in the Mass by praying to Our Lady of Sorrows. All this to say, that your contention that the mass should be said in the vernacular presupposes 1) that the mass is primary a dialogue of God with man and it is actually a dialogue of God with God and 2) celebration and participation are the same when, in fact, they are different.

    • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

      Marcus: What does Rad Trad mean.? Cardinal Burke said recently that he hesitates to use the phrase, ‘Traditional Marriage’ because it infers that there is another type. The same applies or should apply to ‘Catholic’

      • Marcus

        Well said, old boy! It bothers me that Orthodoxy is considered a quality admitting of various gradations. How often do we hear something like: “He’s a good priest, he’s super orthodox” or “I don’t agree with everything he says but at least he’s Orthodox.” Whatever happened to clear dichotomies like believer and heretic. You know you are living in troubled times when you need to mention a priests orthodoxy as though it were a virtuous quality that admitted of varying degrees of excellence. I call myself a rad trad to distinguish myself from neo-cons or individuals who attend the TLM but think that VII was a good thing.

  • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

    With respect Dave but you are ill informed about the theology surrounding the Mass. You have no sense whatsoever of the universality of the Latin… No sense of history and no sense of tradition. Perhaps you could tell me why the attendance at Mass has fallen from around 80% 50 years ago to as low as about 15-20% now. We have lost the sense of the sacred. Nothing is sacred anymore. I’ll wager you believe in the reception of the body and blood of Our Lord in the hand whilst standing. Why is it that most don’t genuflect anymore? These two things have done more to lessen belief in the real and corporeal presence than anything else. I pray Dave, that you will make some attempt to seek the truth of the Matter.

    • William McEnaney

      Geoff, some will tell us traditionalists that we’re reasoning fallaciously when we blame Vatican II for much of the crisis in the Catholic Church. They do that because they know that a correlation between events doesn’t imply that the first event caused the second one. But as Michael Davies points out, there’s a problem with that criticism: The results of Vatican II are seemingly the opposites of the expected ones. So I’ll look up the quotation where Cardinal Ratzinger says they seem that way.

      • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

        William: I agree. I equally sure that VII was called with the best of intentions and without malice aforethought. It was soon Hi-jacked by the Modernist and we have now a travesty. It is harder that it would seem, to connect the dots and make that correlation between cause and effect.
        The same tactics are being employed in the synod of Bishops

        • William McEnaney

          I agree with you, Geoff, but I think John XXIII was too optimistic about the council(?) . Some in the Vatican even warned him that the Church didn’t need the it and that calling it would tempt God.

          Here’s an argument that proves its conclusion if the premises are true.

          Any bishops’ meeting is an ecumenical council if and only if it defines dogma, condemns falsehoods, or does both.

          Vatican II was a bishops’ meeting that did neither.

          ___________________________________________________________________
          So Vatican II wasn’t an ecumenical council.

    • Carlos Lopez

      One God, one Faith, one Church, one Baptism and one Language!

      • Where in the heck is THAT in Scripture? Stop it!

        • Carlos Lopez

          I never said it was in Scripture! Please stop assuming. By the way I am not Protestant so I do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            You sound confused,Carlos…Isn’t…”One Lord, One Faith,One Baptism”…found in Scripture? If so,what exactly is it that you DON’T believe?

    • Who is Dave? Who are you referring this to?

      • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

        David: I was talking to you when I used the name Dave. How am I to know that it would prompt such an outburst.
        ‘Dave’ was not intended to indicate disrespect. Where I come from it is an accepted abbreviated form of David. I am sure it is the same where you come from, therefore your outburst is nothing more than a tantrum and a little childish.
        How about addressing the points made rather than issuing insults.
        I repeat that you are lacking, in a sense of History and tradition not to mention any clear understanding of the use of Latin in worship.
        BTW I did read all of the series on loving the NO of the Mass. So much for your assumptions.
        You come across as a know all upstart, however I feel that you are neither an upstart and nor do you know everything.

        I am qualified to speak on the matters of history/tradition in the Church for no other reason than I have experienced both forms of the Mass.
        After 22 years of the Latin Rite Mass I embraced the Novus Ordo mass with gusto. I experience 40 years ( attending every day) before I could no longer stand the banality and disrespect and the novelty, different in every parish. I sensed something was terribly wrong when the local priest insisted on having his dog or his pet goldfish at/on the altar ( Many other abuse too numerous to mention here). No body genuflected ,reverence for the Blessed Sacrament was non- existent, the mass such as it was simply an opportunity for the priest introduce more novelties.
        Every Priest had a different ‘method’ for ‘confecting’ at the consecration. I shudder to think of the number of occasions I attended an invalid Mass without realising it. The very words of consecration differed from priest to priest.
        After 40 years of this I eventually left the Church and certainly stopped attending Mass altogether. Two years later I was reintroduced to the Latin Rite Mass by my son.
        So you see David I have been attending a NO for longer that you have been alive, so don’t presume to lecture me or anyone else for that matter on the Pros and Cons of either rite.
        God Bless you for your obvious zeal and love for the Church however misplaced or misguided it may be.

        • Seminaries producing ordained homosexuals and boy lovers disagree with your romantic image of the Church prior to VII.

          That said, I appreciate your journey. Glad it didn’t make you a Sedevacantist.

        • Laurence Charles Ringo

          Seriously,dude…you subjected yourself to something you disdained for FORTY YEARS???
          What the what was wrong with you????

  • William McEnaney

    To support what Fr. Hesse says about Muslims, please read question 12 and its answer here in the Catechism of St. Pius X.

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM

  • William McEnaney

    I’m sorry, everyone. Cardinal Ratzinger didn’t use the phrase “opposite of.” He said “opposed to” when he described Vatican II’s results.

    http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/goldfish-bowl.htm

  • Carlos Lopez

    One of the reasons my family and I stopped attending the N.O. is because it is people centered. The N.O. was created for the community, we see it in the sign of the peace, in the music, in the fact that the people have the need to do something during the Mass, and in having the people and the priest turn to each other and dialog. After one reads your article one can see how your comments demonstrate how this is true. Now, since the N.O. is people centered then reverence for the sacred and especially our Lord in the Tabernacle is lost. People no longer genuflect in front of the Tabernacle, people on their smart phones and or talking before Mass as when one goes to the movies, and people showing up in flip flops, and beach attire. I believe that God withholds His graces from those who are irreverent before Him and at the N.O. no one is scandalized anymore by irreverence to Our Lord.

    • I NEVER thought the NO Mass was people centered. That sounds ridiculous! Clearly, being that Quad Presence of Christ is Present at Mass – it is Christ centered. Everything about the Mass is about Christ. What NO does is more fully incorporate the people into the prayer, offering, and sending of the Sacrifice.

      • Carlos Lopez

        If it is not people centered then why the emphasis on a “communal” meal? Why are they trying to elevate the “priesthood” of the laity and relegating the priest to a mere Presider? Why the focus on making the Mass more entertaining? All the while removing the Tabernacle from the Sanctuary and relegating Him to a broom closet, er, side chapel.

  • Michael

    Dave, this article certainly looks like it is from the heart. However, your reasoning is profoundly incorrect on several important points. Many of these points are covered by other commenters.

    I will say that:

    * it is not the Latin that is the primary issue at hand; for argument’s sake if the TLM was said in English it would be difficult to put a powerful principled argument against it.

    * the issue is that the Mass itself has changed

    Some other points:

    * it’s **absurd** to say that Mary and Joseph would have taught Jesus anything, especially language. They were aware that He was God; it would be Him that would be doing the teaching. Anything they taught would be only Jesus’ satisfying of their purely human parental urges and would be with the conscious will of Jesus.

    * it’s **unlikely** that the Mother of God would have to learn anything; I would assume that due to her sinless state, she would have **at least** the same amount of intelligence as Adam, and **probably** at least the same amount of infused knowledge – this would include language. She would have at least the amount of knowledge that would enhance her intellectual appreciation for the fact that she was carrying God in her womb – He would have shared with her many secrets with language being the tiniest footnote

    Btw, happy for anyone to correct me on the parts about the learning mechanisms of the Holy Family … those are just my opinions and I would happily submit to the authority of the Catholic Church on any of those points.

    • Michael, you might have to read the whole series before you make judgement on whether this is an emotional plea or not. I usually do tell stories in my writing, but I’m not an emotional person really.

      As for what you found absurd. Your Christology of Mary and Joseph is troublesome to say the least. While theologians do not agree about what Jesus knew when He knew it, you’re are completely out of line with the general thought on the subject. I’d recommend BXVI series of books on Jesus of Nazareth.

      I understand these are your opinions, but I really find them a bit disturbing, because they are so far out of line of what Sacred Scripture and what ‘most’ orthodox Catholic theologians have taught from the beginning.

      • Michael

        I’m sorry. When I said it was from the heart I meant that it was an honest article without the prejudice that I find elsewhere. I don’t find it as an emotional piece … otherwise I wouldn’t have commented! It is a reasoned article but it is not right reason. It’s symptomatic of *men* brought up in the novus ordo … the phrases, sentence structure, and style of argument is so different to what one was the clear mark of a Catholic: precision of terms, precision and clear bounding of the topic, incredible depth of reasoning, and an unmistakable *intellectual* conviction that the Catholic Church is the answer to all the problems of the world.

        As I said … happy to submit to any of the points on the Holy Family to the authority of the Catholic Church. That’s another subject.

        Thanks for taking the time to reply not just to me but several of the well meaning people on this site. If there’s anything that you perceived as malicious please know that is not my intent.

  • Juan Pablo

    How surprising. A supporter of the Novus ordo (Latin for “Created by Committee”) thinks the mass is all about him (or the congregation).

    This of course was the point, especially for the Protestant advisors and cheerleaders who pushed for the Catholic Church to be less catholic.

    • If you’ve mustered up this summation “thinks the mass is all about him (or the congregation)” after reading this series of articles on ‘Loving the Novus Ordo’ Mass you are lucky you graduated from High School before those standardized CORE tests came along, because would have never gotten past the reading comprehension section.

    • Laurence Charles Ringo

      Wow,Jaun Pablo…I was unaware that”heretics”could push the Catholic Church anywhere.Who’da thunk it?

      • Juan Pablo

        It’s a matter of the historical record. Protestant advisors influenced the debate at Vatican 2 on a number of documents, had their feelings catered to so the debate wouldn’t be too catholic, and those advisors were also prominent in the committee of liturgical vandals led by anibale bugnini. How else would they have come up with a mass essentially indistinguishable from Cranmer’s (another heretic).

        Many histories of the council address this, it isn’t really a matter of controversy.

  • GeneDe

    Hello there Mr. Gray… Well, I have to say that as a cradle Catholic I love the Latin Mass. In fact, while I was in Vietnam I, and another brother, helped the Irish priest set up the altar for Mass in our little chapel (that was used for all services/religions). After I returned to the world, I didn’t hear of or attend the Latin Mass for nearly 30 years. I was ignorant of the fact that there were some still in existence. Since 1997 — by Providence — we have been attending exclusively the Latin Mass of the ages. I have no problem following the Latin in my Latin/English missal; in fact, I read more of the Latin than the English. It is sublime; it is glorious to God most High. The law of praying is the law of believing. I wonder what N.O. Catholics believe about the necessity of being Catholic and to convert those not in the Church? Also, after Mass we meet for lecture and brunch; we put on shows, etc. One thing I love seeing are the large — very large — families of young folk that attend the Mass and make up our community. I have also been to some N.O. funerals — my brother for one — and everyone is automatically in Heaven; really? Sorry, I can no longer attend such Masses.. Blessings.

    • Thank you for your comment GeneDe. I will grant you a number of things to the TLM community in regards to their seriousness and attention to what Catholic worship and ‘set-apart’ means. We are talking about the application of what the Church teaches. Does the TLM community appear to apply what the Church teaches moreso than the NO community? Absolutely. I will grant you that. As I said, if I had the type of life that I could take the time to learn Syriac I would have joined a Maronite or Melkite parish.

      That being said, the point of this whole series was to demonstrate that ‘application aside’ there are beautiful things about the NO Mass, but I do appreciate how some people cannot get past the horrible examples of bad application.

      • GeneDe

        Thank you for your honesty, David. Blessings.

  • JudeThom

    So the author attempts to proposition a woman in an airport? He feels the urgings of his libido and acts on it. “Hi, what’s your name?” Meaning, “I love the look and sway of your body. I love your hair. Let’s go get a drink. Let’s hold hands. Let’s pet.” And so forth. Then he quotes Scripture.. What a strange and funny intoduction.

    I am being unnecessarily hard on him. I agree that the Novus Ordo Mass has destroyed the Catholic Church.

    • A number of ignorant assumptions. Bye.

      • Laurence Charles Ringo

        You and I don’t always agree,David(I’m the Resident Protestant Gadfly,after all,LOL! ),but I’m with you on this one.You would think that JudeThom’s real god is…well,Latin!! (Didn’t Paul say Jesus spoke to him in Hebrew during the “Damascus Road”encounter?).

  • keith marino

    Hello Mr. Gray,

    While I don’t doubt your sincerity I must admit that I do hope in time (with continued experience, learning, etc…) you (and others aligned with the thinking in your article) will begin to see the TLM and the Novus Ordo with a bit more clarity. Since I don’t know how much you’ve read about the history and
    development of the liturgies of the Church or how much familiarity you have with Catholic tradition (liturgical, theological, etc…), I’ll not speculate. I’ll simply offer you my personal experience and learning.

    All I knew for most of my life (until I was about 29 years old) was the Novus Ordo and it’s many and varying expressions (some good, some not so good). About that time (age 29) I began attending the Novus Ordo at a parish where it (the Novus Ordo) was celebrated in a way that was more reverent than I had ever previously experienced (ad orientem, sung Mass, male only sanctuary, mostly Latin ordinary, Roman Canon used exclusively on Sundays, chanted Gospel, sacred music, communion rail, etc…). Shortly thereafter I began serving in the sanctuary at the Novus Ordo. At that time I thought this was great and wonderful.
    I knew there was a Solemn High TLM celebrated just before the Novus Ordo that I was serving but felt a bit intimidated by it as I was just learning to serve the Novus Ordo. Eventually I became experienced in serving and was requested by my fellow servers and the pastor to serve the TLM. That was over eight years ago now. Since that time, not only have I been serving at both “forms” of the Roman rite but also have been continuing my intellectual and spiritual development with a strong focus on things liturgical.

    As time went on I began to see more clearly that, after becoming more immersed in tradition vis-a-vis
    the TLM, I had somehow graduated from a lower form of the liturgy (Novus Ordo) to a higher form (the TLM). While both masses were celebrated with reverence, I began to see a larger and larger disconnect between the ancient rite and the new one. It appears that less reverence is actually built into the Novus Ordo itself as well as into the instructions guiding its celebration. With so many allowances in the NO, one could legitimately concoct a rite that either more closely resembles a stripped down version of the TLM (on the one hand) or a rite that more closely resembles a complete break with the TLM (a liturgy it supposedly “developed” from) and thus liturgical tradition in general. This “option-itis” and vernacularization actually causes ghettoization in the Church at large.

    I also began to note that the TLM really expresses the universality of the Catholic faith much more
    clearly than the often localized (ghettoized) celebration of the Novus Ordo does. There are people from all backgrounds present the TLM who, although from disparate language groups and cultures, come together to worship God in the universal “non-vernacular” sacred language (see S. Pope John XXIII – Veterum Sapientia). This is a much more powerful and attractive (in the sense of attracting others to the fold) way to express the “unity in diversity” of Christ’s One, Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church. At my parish there is also a greater sense of community after the TLM than after the mostly English NO.
    Since Latin is truly a non-vernacular language (which respects no specific culture – see S. Pope John XXIII) it is capable of embracing all cultures. Latin actually eschews ghettoization while at the same time giving glory to God in a sacred (set apart) language. The TLM and the culture of faith it is capable of creating and sustaining across centuries, nations and continents is a much more powerful, visible and united expression of the Catholic faith that has been handed on to us via Christ’s Church since apostolic times.

    There is a whole lot more I could add, but my comment is already too long I’m sure. I’ll give others a chance to fill in the gaps (as some have already done). Perhaps a tradition minded Catholic can produce a concise book list that all here can benefit from reading?

    Pax Christi,

    Keith

    • I appreciate your journey and personal perspective Keith! I hope your immersion in the TLM best facilitates the remainder of your journey to Calvary. Blessings and Shalom.

    • Laurence Charles Ringo

      O.K….I know I’ll regret asking this,but I’ll do it anyway…When did Latin become a”sacred”language?? How did I miss that memo,Keith? Did Almighty God forget to mention that in Scripture??

      • keith marino

        Laurence,
        Latin became a sacred language when it, along with Greek and Hebrew, was used on the Cross of Christ (placed there by Pontius Pilate in the three languages mentioned above). The Latin is: Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum (INRI). (See the Gospel of St. John). The Church teaches that Hebrew, Greek and Latin are the three sacred languages of the Church.
        An aside: the Latin that has been used in the Holy Mass and other liturgies of the Church since the very earliest centuries was never the same Latin as was spoken in the streets or in the home…in other words, it was not the vernacular of the people.
        Pax Christi,
        Keith

    • glorybe29

      It see that you mention reverence , there is no reverence to our Lord Jesus in any of the non-senc ical words all of you use through out these pathetic comments. JESUS MUST REALLY WONDER IF YOU EVER JUST TALK TO HIM AS a person. It’s Good Friday and the tre ore services. Why aren’t’ t you there?

      • keith marino

        glorybe29,
        I love Jesus Christ Who is my Lord and God, Savior and Redeemer. I pray to Him every day throughout the day. In response to your question regarding the three hour services (with specific mention of Good Friday), I was there. I’m there every year during Holy Week as I, and many others, serve the Triduum liturgies which includes Cena Domini (Holy Thursday), the Veneration of the Holy Cross (Good Friday) and the Easter Vigil. We seek to show our love and give honor to our Lord Jesus Christ by serving him in the sacred liturgies as best we can. May God bless you.
        Pax Christi,
        Keith

  • William McEnaney

    Everyone, since I like to cite my sources, I’ll quote indirectly the preface from Msgr. Gamber’s book called “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its Problems and Background” Unfortunately, Roman Catholic Books omitted Ratzinger’s preface from its edition of that book (ISBN 1-929291-88-4). In the preface to the English edition, F. Gerard Calvet, O.S.B. writes, “. . . Since the Council, we have witnessed a break in tradition. Instead of a homogenous and harmonious development of the rites, as was always the case until then, a ‘manufactured’ liturgy’ has been established” (page ix). That’s partly Cardinal Ratzinger’s point when he tells us what this link will show you.

    http://marklambert.blogspot.com/2013/11/ratzinger-on-liturgical-legacy-of.html

    Maybe you remember when His Eminence said that he wanted the TLRM and the Novus Ordo to enrich each other. From I’ve read, Pope Benedict revised the Novus Ordo to invent a hybrid rite of Mass. So he seems to believe that what he called a “banal on-the-spot product” can change into a new rite that develops organically to replace the Novus Ordo. Is he trying to replace the TLRM? If he’s trying to do that. I wish he would reread Canon 13 from Trent’s Seventh Session, since it suggests that the Church needs to keep received, approved rites of Mass.

    Here’s a link to RCB’s website.

    http://www.BooksForCatholics.com

  • Louis Figueroa

    Wow! So much anger in these threads. Let us get a few things straight, David Gray wrote a great piece! He did not create the problems that have arisen since the Second Vatican Council. There are indeed liturgical problems with the Novus Ordo, but let us understand that Holy Mother Church allows it, so regardless of one’s opinion on the Mass, it is licit and valid and to say otherwise is to put yourself outside of the Church.

    Abuses exist in the liturgy. This occurs in either the Novus or Vetus Ordo. It happens. However, Mr Gray is indeed correct that many in this post modern society do find the Novus Ordo more approachable. Vernacular is easier for many to grasp and understand, especially in the face of more aggressive and evangelical Protestantism. Consequently, the liturgy “can” be more anthropocentric, but this is NOT always the case, and these have been the issues being addressed by the Reform of the Reform. Let us not forget that our beloved Tridentine Mass appeared as such over time. Also, even the recognition of communion upon the tongue came about over time as well, and it was originally given in hand. This is a point addressed in “Dominus Est”, by Bishop Athanasius Schneider.

    As Latin Rite Catholics, we have indeed a responsibility to preserve the Church’s Official Language; however, we must also realize that vernacular has long been used by our Eastern Catholic brothers. This was a point accentuated by the Melkites at the onset of Vatican II and later accepted the Latin Rite. They made the suggestion before any Protestants or Latins did, and indeed it was a valid point. Many people in this present day are indeed self-focused and will not answer the call to learn another language. That is not to say that some will not, obviously many of us who attend the TLM have bothered to study Latin, but many will not.

    Personally, I prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo and will travel a good distance to attend, but I am also a person who is ill which means that sometimes I cannot. I must return and attend the Novus Ordo. The TLM fits with my spirituality and the way I pray, but Holy Mother Church has stated the Novus Ordo is now the Ordinary Form of the Liturgy and I must accept that. It must be done with humility and obedience. I must recognize that God is present. I must recognize the Sacrament is valid and I must suffer and strive to towards holiness.

    Many of us who have qualms towards the Novus Ordo can likely attest to abuses we have beheld, but we cannot let bad things pull us away from those lawfully appointed over us, nor embrace an attitude of disobedience. The Lord will give us respite in due time.

    Nevertheless, I have digressed. The Novus Ordo is indeed easier for the post-modern man to embrace and he can encounter God, but that is not to say that he cannot also embrace tradition and the traditional Mass. Still, many people who I encounter begin at the Novus Ordo and when they are ready will enter the Extraordinary Form Community. I have my immediate family who can embrace the EF but others like my in-laws who simply cannot get passed the Latin and the different from. We can talk about how easy it is to read the missal, but some are not cerebral like that and some have learning difficulties. They just find the NO easier to get on with. It makes sense.

    We should give Mr Gray some credit. While we may differ on our opinion and our preference of Mass form, there is some validity to what he is saying. This is not to say one is better than the other; after all it was in Universae Ecclesiae, that Pope Benedict XVI the Extraordinary Form should be treated with equal dignity in the Latin Rite, but this also would mean the opposite is true. Let us do so and let the Holy Spirit guide us and do the rest.

    • This dialogue definitely has left me with a certain taste in my mouth about the TLM community.Seems very elitist. Not liturgical snobs, but liturgical gnostics almost.

      • keith marino

        Mr. Gray,
        After having read and replied to my comments below regarding my learning and experience (regarding both the old and new Masses), would you also place me in this elitist group of liturgical gnostics (almost)? I do believe that what you seem to believe about the TLM community (as you refer to it) is quite far from the truth. I’ll await your reply.
        Pax Christi,
        Keith

        • No, not at all do I think that at all. It’s the opposite. I wrote this series of articles because of people who attack the NO Mass as if the liturgy and the people who prefer it are far from the truth.

      • Louis Figueroa

        I am sorry that this encounter has left you with opinion. I know that you’re not the only who has said this to me, but please be assured that many of us, while loving tradition very deeply, are not elitist and gladly welcome anyone. There is a problem when we become too infatuated with an “us” “them” mentality, but many EF communities do follow very closely the guidelines given to us in Universae Eccelesiae, as to not do so would cause us to be suppressed. Please also keep in mind that there have been many things over the last 50+ years which have given folks their outlook, and they have their reasons for being practicing strong apologetics regarding the TLM. Look with kindness and understanding because it has been a very painful road for them. I say this also of my own experience too. It has taken me many years to find a balance, and I have been thrown into a whirlwind many times by bad liturgy. It is a horrible temptation and it tried my soul to the core. I was fortunate to have very good friends to help me along and some very good priests to guide me.

      • David, I’ve discovered that how you fall on this issue depends on life experience and there is no convincing people like you. Neither is there any convincing of people like me. Blessings and Shalom.

        (^Now THAT is Gnosticism for you.)

        • Based upon life experience I like my peanut butter and jelly sandwiches toasted using white bread.

      • Jude

        That is a very sad statement. I belong to a TLM community. They are very welcoming and friendly. Having moved around the country and experiencing life as the newcomer family, I can tell you that they are just as welcoming as any Novus Ordo parish I attended. There is social interaction before and after the Masses. Not at all elitist. Many families of all sizes and individuals coming together trying to bring our very best to the Lord and to strengthen one another in the Faith.

      • raffer

        David it would seem that your article is attacking TLM and you are surprised that people reacted. you should acknowledge you had a large part to play in the resulting tone of the comments

        • In the article it says it’s not attacking. I can’t control emotions.

          • raffer

            just because you say your not attacking doesn’t mean your not. in fact it points out that you know its going to be inflammatory. I go to both traditions and I found it derogative. perhaps you need to be honest with yourself

          • Exactly! Bingo! What you FOUND had everything to do with your emotions and NOTHING to do with my intent.

            Moreover, most of these people came here due to an inflammatory link posted at Remnant Newspaper. They were set up by the editor there to react negatively here. So many did.

          • raffer

            no it had to do with what you posted not with any emotions. it seems you think to find something, means based on emotions. in a court case the jury finds the accused innocent guilty on evidence.
            you seem unable to acknowledge your belittling of the latin mass. ironically as above perhaps its your lack of understanding of the language you use.

  • Geoff Kiernan West Australia

    BTW what is it that the priest has in that glass jar???

  • Mark O’Keefe
  • Mark O’Keefe
  • William McEnaney

    Everyone, although always attend the Traditional Latin Mass instead of the Novus Ordo, I know why some people prefer the Novus Ordo, including my mom. But I believe firmly that it’s harmful and against divine law. Here’s a video by Fr. Stephen Somerville who feels sorry because he helped translate it.

    • Laurence Charles Ringo

      Against”divine law”?? Seriously? Chapter and verse of this “law”,please—Where exactly is it found,William? That’s a new one on me!!!

  • Atsa4you

    Just an additional reference point for discussion, as pertains to this discussion thread and as an addendum to comments made two weeks ago by the Bishop of Rome when he suggested that Tradition (i.e.Latin) was a backwards direction, and that vernacular represents a “moving forward” “we must always move forward”. Are we obligated to abide by that perspective, because he is the Pope, and disregard the words of others who came before him:

    “For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations, and is destined to endure till the end of time…of its very nature requires a language that is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular” Pope Pius XI I believe he went on to say something to the effect of vernacular being an anethema.

    Francis’s comments made on the anniversary of the Mass said in the vernacular and a reference to the fact this was a movement forward, and that Tradition represents going backwards, certainly offers more understanding as to why he has targeted with a vengeance the Franciscan orders, and almost anything else that represents the historical Tradition of all things that make us Catholic. Why should we accept the words of Francis at the expense of those who preceded him? Did Vatican II erase the past?

  • William McEnaney

    Yes, Mr. Gray, I did say “against divine law. Maybe this article will explain my belief much more clearly than I can explain it.

    http://www.scripturecatholic.com/feature-articles/Catholic%20Tradition/CFN%20-%20The%20Novus%20Ordo%20Mass%20and%20Divine%20Law.pdf

  • Tim

    JMJ dear David it has been 5 moths have you converted yet!
    OLJC has given you some great answers on the replies.
    I will say two things.
    1. The BVM asks you dearly to enrol & wear Her Brown Scapular.
    2. Re Latin My ways are not yours……

    Ave Maria a Rosary for you.

    • Tim you sound like a TLM Elitist Gnostic. The Blessed Virgin Mary has said nothing about her preference of Rite. You sound stupid! You really do! Don’t come to my site with that TLM Elitism and trying to use my Mother Mary in your plot to divide on conquer. Shame on you for trying to use the Virgin Mary!!!!!

  • The Novus Ordo is leading catholics into the one world church of antichrist by interfaith meetings, etc. such as this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYISzJvWmJU

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Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: A True Dialogue of Persons
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Loving the Novus Ordo Mass: A True Dialogue of Persons
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There is a lot to love about the Novus Ordo Mass of the Latin Roman Rite, including the fact that affords the opportunity to dialogue with God without an interpreter.
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