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The Anti-Catholic Roots of the Thanksgiving Holiday

I

‘ve grown very fond of saying that ‘Everyone is Catholic on Saint Patrick’s Day’. I say that because on every March 17th, at least in the United States, you’ll find people of every sect, creed, and religion wearing green, saying ‘Happy Saint Patty’s Day’ to friends and strangers alike, and drinking and eating things that should never be the color green. And, indeed, many of these souls also happen to be some of the most anti-Catholic persons since John Calvin himself.

It is true, along with many other things, the Catholic community has lost control of the message of what Saint Patrick and his Feast Day is all about. Whether Catholics will ever resuscitate the true meaning of that honored Feast Day will certainly come sometime after Timothy Cardinal Dolan, the Archbishop of New York, serves as Grand Marshall of the first St. Patrick’s Day in which openly homosexual groups will march; to which Cardinal applauds (bravo), saying, “I have no trouble with the decision at all … I think the decision is a wise one.”

The Calvinistic and Anti-Catholic Roots of Thanksgiving Day

At least Catholics aren’t alone in losing control over the original purpose of one of their most honored celebrations. Originally, Thanksgiving Days were the Protestant response to the litany of Catholic Church Holy Days, which required the faithful to attend Mass. Two years after King Henry VIII (1491-1547) had consecrated the Church of England – making himself the supreme head, and during the same year (1536 – perhaps the initial height of the formal repression of Catholicism and Catholics in England) that his Parliament passed the Act Against the Pope’s Authority, Henry also established his church’s own calendar with only 27 Holy Days.

Yet, King Henry’s reforms were not enough for the Puritans, who desired to completely do away with all Church Holy Days, including Christmas and Easter. Their idea was to replace all Holy Days with Days of Fasting or Days of Thanksgiving. Days of Fasting would be for repentance after unexpected disasters, while Days of Thanksgiving would be celebrated after clear evidence of God’s favor, such as when a Day of Thanksgiving was celebrated in 1606 after the failure of the Gunpowder Plot the year before. Eventually this annual Day of Thanksgiving became known as Guy Fawkes Day, and is still celebrated in parts of England.

The other heights of repression of Catholicism in England, when the ‘penal laws’ were either strengthened or virgorously reinforced include:

  • In 1581 an Act of Parliament made reconciliation to the Catholic Church treason, in response to numbers of evangelizing priests and missionary Jesuits arriving between 1574 and 1580.
  • In 1585 an Act of Parliament declared it to be treason the very presence of a Catholic priest in England, and made it a felony for anyone to shelter or assist a priest. Treason and felonies were capital crimes, and many Catholics suffered death due to these new laws.
  • In 1588 after the failure of the Spanish Armada, which intended to overthrow of Queen Elizabeth I, the anti-Catholic ‘penal laws’ were again enforced without exception. Of the 85 English-Catholic martyrs, 66 suffered between the years of 1584 and 1691.
  • Yet, it was the aforementioned Gunpowder Plot on the 5th of November 1605 that aroused anti-Catholic sentiment around the time that the rigorist Puritans were ready to bring their hatred against Catholics to New England. Of the 85 English-Catholic martyrs, 9 died after the Gunpowder Plot.
  • Thanksgiving Day Comes to New England & the State Takes it Over

    Two things should be made clear at this point. The first is the that the English Protestant ‘Reformation’ was not only a theological reform of Catholicism, but it was also an intelligent war and an institutionalized partisanship against Catholics. The second is that, the Puritans and the Pilgrims believed that the English Protestant ‘Reform’ had not gone far enough. They were completely dissatisfied with the tolerance that the Church of England showed towards Catholic ‘practices’. They were demanding a church that was pure from the influence of all Catholic teaching. Succinctly, the Puritans adopted Calvinism theology; which Chesterton called in his Eugenics and Other Evils “immoral” and “the most non-Christian of Christian systems.

    The small group of ‘Pilgrims’ who settled the Plymouth Colony in Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1620 were a conglomeration of early separatists from the Church of England, who were seeking refuge from conflicts in England that eventually led up to the English Civil War. The overall opinion that this group would have had of the Catholic Church was very close to that of Puritans, who began immigrating to New England and 1620, and established the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1629.

    In Massachusetts in 1621 there was a good harvest, which according to the anti-Catholic tradition of the Englanders, demanded that there be a Day of Thanksgiving held in response to God’s good favor shown to them. This was the very first Day of Thanksgiving, and whether any Native Americans were there are not remains disputed. Nevertheless, by the late 1660’s the Day of Thanksgiving for good harvest would be an annual occurrence in New England, with both church and state leaders offering their proclamations of the day. During the American Revolution political leaders began announcing Day of the Thanksgiving in response to God showing them favor in battle. President George Washington proclaimed the first nationwide thanksgiving celebration on November 26, 1789, “as a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favours of Almighty God.”

    While the clear roots of Thanksgiving Day proclamations are Calvinistic and religious and exclusively for offering thanks to God for showing favor, today the national holiday in the United States is marked with the President issuing a proclamation and ‘pardoning’ a turkey for life.

    Giving Thanks for Conclusions

    After Anglicanism became the official religion in Virginia, a band of Puritans left there in 1642 for Maryland, where they founded Providence – a fitting name of city of Calvinists. It would later be renamed Annapolis (named after the Protestant Queen Anne). In the late 1600’s and early 1700’s the Puritan revolution government had seized governance of Maryland and began violating the Maryland Toleration Act of 1649, which established tolerance of various forms of Christianity. These Puritans persecuted Maryland Catholics by burning down all the original Catholic Churches in southern Maryland, and moved the seat of government from the St. Mary’s City to Annapolis.

    Could you imagine these Catholics celebrating the Puritan’s Thanksgiving Day? I couldn’t. Could you imagine these Puritans celebrating a Day of Thanksgiving after burning down those Catholic Churches? I could! And here we are, many centuries later, celebrating the most anti-Catholic holiday of all.

    While Catholics in the United States have lost control of the message of Saint Patrick’s Day and Saint Valentine’s Day, and are starting to lose control of the message of Christmas, we certainly have to be thankful to God that Protestants have lost their message of Thanksgiving Day! Let us pray that they rediscover it where Christ Jesus intended – in the thank-offering (todah) of the Holy Eucharist! 😀


    Summary
    The Anti-Catholic Roots of the Thanksgiving Holiday
    Article Name
    The Anti-Catholic Roots of the Thanksgiving Holiday
    Description
    The roots of the Thanksgiving Holiday are clearly Protestant and Anti-Catholic. Lets give thanks that Protestants have lost control of that message.
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    Saint Dominic's Media, Inc.
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    • Yankeegator

      We are starting to celebrate Thanksgiving on September 8th in our house…

    • Deoacveritatimyfaithsustainsm

      Great article thank you!

    • jpaYMCA

      We pray the “Agimus tibi gratias…” or thanksgiving after every meal, so I guess every day is Thanksgiving in this household.
      Thank you for an article that reminds us of easily-forgotten history!

    • Salvelinus

      Very cool. .. thanks for this, especially important since the church has become so protestant-like since the second Vatican council.
      Dominus vobiscum!

    • Thomas Sharpe

      Happy Thanksgiving Dave. It’s good to know, to see, that in God’s Time all is made right.

      • You too! Yes, God conforms everything to His glory! He won’t have it any other way. 😀

        • Thomas Sharpe

          Thanks Dave. I’m really praying that all unrest and hatred, comes to an end. May God our Father bring good from all evil. Enough.

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            No…Sorry, Thomas; as long as you have people like the writer of this piece trying to throw the”separated brethren ” under the ecclesiastical bus of roman catholicism, forget it–IT WON’T HAPPEN, and frankly, I am not convinced that people like this are interested in making it happen; I think they just want to score pseudo – theological points.Shame.

            • Thomas Sharpe

              There have been many black popes who were Successors of Peter, and I believe there soon will be again! There’s only One Church!

            • Laurence Charles Ringo

              Umm…I’m confused here, Thomas. What does”black”popes have to do with anything? (By the way, catholic historians record the existence of three popes of probable African descent, possibly Berbers, not necessarily Black as we understand that designation.There is no doubt that the overwhelming majority of those who inhabited the “throne”of Peter were of European lineage.But again, your point is…what?

            • Michael S Clifford

              The point is that the “race” card is a joke. Africa was Christianized before Europe was Christianized before it Protestantized itself. Protestantism is for whites and self-hating blacks. Christianity is for everyone.

            • Laurence Charles Ringo

              Wow,Mr.Clifford…that’s one of the most asinine things I’ve ever heard on Mr.Gray’s website.Do you even know what you’re talking about?? I certainly don’t,and frankly I would advise you to choose the wording of your response carefully( IF you choose to respond), because rest assured: I’m sure that I know a WHOLE lot more about Protestantism than you do (As your comment make clear.) So—-BRING IT.

            • Michael S Clifford

              How is it so asinine? Protestantism was started by a white man. Protestantism was the religion practiced by slaveowners. Your overconfidence is your weakness. If you are insinuating that you are a Protestant, then you have a minut then you are insinuating that you are not a Christian. Protestantism is not Christianity. You adhere to the manmade heresy (Saint Paul to the Colossians 2:8) called “once saved always saved”. You adhere to unbiblical doctrines such as “Bible only” (Saint John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:12-14; 20:30; 21:25) and “faith only” (Saint James). We adhere to the Word of God. And part of the Word of God says to obey His Church (Saint Matthew 16:18,19, Saint Luke 10:16, Saint John 10:14-18). And the Church says to keep the traditions we learned either by word or epistle (Saint Paul to the Thessalonians 2:14; 3:6). If salvation were a one-time thing, Jesus would not have founded His Church, let alone founded her on His rock Saint Peter, and let alone wasted His breath giving him and his successors (1 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 4:16, 2 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 2:2) the authority to bind and loose in Heaven and on Earth, let alone wasted His breath giving them the Holy Spirit giving them the authority to forgive and retain sins (Saint John 20:22,23) upon a penitent’s confession (Saint James 5:16; 1 Saint John 1:9). Apostle Saint John stated that “you may know that you have eternal life” (Saint John 5:24, 1 Saint John 5:13). But this “assurance” has to be understood in light of Saint John’s other teachings in the same book: “For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments” (1 Saint John 5:3, 2:3-6). “We know that any one born of God does not sin” (1 Saint John 5:18). “He who loves God should love his brother also” (1 Saint John 4:21). “He who commits sin is of the devil” (1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 6:9, 1 Saint John 3:8). Likewise, Apostle Saint Paul did not regard salvation as a one-time event, but as a goal to be sought after, one that can be lost: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Saint Paul to the Philippians 2:12, 3:11-14, 1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 9:27, 10:12, Galatians 5:1;4, 1 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 4:1; 5:15).

            • Michael S Clifford

              How is it so asinine? Protestantism was started by a white man. Protestantism was the religion practiced by slaveowners. Jesus was Hebrew, not white or black. Your overconfidence is your weakness. If you are insinuating that you are a Protestant, then you are insinuating that you are not a Christian. Protestantism is not Christianity. You adhere to the manmade heresy (Saint Paul to the Colossians 2:8) called “once saved always saved”. You adhere to unbiblical doctrines such as “Bible only” (Saint John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:12-14; 20:30; 21:25) and “faith only” (Saint James). We adhere to the Word of God. And part of the Word of God says to obey His Church (Saint Matthew 16:18,19, Saint Luke 10:16, Saint John 10:14-18). And the Church says to keep the traditions we learned either by word or epistle (Saint Paul to the Thessalonians 2:14; 3:6). If salvation were a one-time thing, Jesus would not have founded His Church, let alone founded her on His rock Saint Peter, and let alone wasted His breath giving him and his successors (1 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 4:16, 2 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 2:2) the authority to bind and loose in Heaven and on Earth, let alone wasted His breath giving them the Holy Spirit giving them the authority to forgive and retain sins (Saint John 20:22,23) upon a penitent’s confession (Saint James 5:16; 1 Saint John 1:9). Apostle Saint John stated that “you may know that you have eternal life” (Saint John 5:24, 1 Saint John 5:13). But this “assurance” has to be understood in light of Saint John’s other teachings in the same book: “For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments” (1 Saint John 5:3, 2:3-6). “We know that any one born of God does not sin” (1 Saint John 5:18). “He who loves God should love his brother also” (1 Saint John 4:21). “He who commits sin is of the devil” (1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 6:9, 1 Saint John 3:8). Likewise, Apostle Saint Paul did not regard salvation as a one-time event, but as a goal to be sought after, one that can be lost: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Saint Paul to the Philippians 2:12, 3:11-14, 1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 9:27, 10:12, Galatians 5:1;4, 1 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 4:1; 5:15).

            • Michael S Clifford

              How is it so asinine? Protestantism was started by a white man. Protestantism was the religion practiced by slaveowners. Jesus was Hebrew, not white or black. Your overconfidence is your weakness. If you are insinuating that you are a Protestant, then you are insinuating that you are not a Christian. Protestantism is not Christianity. If you’re a Protestant, you adhere to the unbiblical man-made doctrines (Saint Paul to the Colossians 2:8) such as “once saved always saved”, “Bible only” (Saint John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:12-14; 20:30; 21:25), and “faith only” (Saint James). As Christians, we adhere to the Word of God. And part of the Word of God says to obey His Church (Saint Matthew 16:18,19, Saint Luke 10:16, Saint John 10:14-18). And the Church says to keep the traditions we learned either by word or epistle (Saint Paul to the Thessalonians 2:14; 3:6). If salvation were a one-time thing, Jesus would not have founded His Church, let alone founded her on His rock Saint Peter, and let alone wasted His breath giving him and his successors (1 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 4:16, 2 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 2:2) the authority to bind and loose in Heaven and on Earth, let alone wasted His breath giving them the Holy Spirit giving them the authority to forgive and retain sins (Saint John 20:22,23) upon a penitent’s confession (Saint James 5:16; 1 Saint John 1:9). Bishop Saint John stated that “you may know that you have eternal life” (Saint John 5:24, 1 Saint John 5:13). But this “assurance” has to be understood in light of Saint John’s other teachings in the same book: “For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments” (1 Saint John 5:3, 2:3-6). “We know that any one born of God does not sin” (1 Saint John 5:18). “He who loves God should love his brother also” (1 Saint John 4:21). “He who commits sin is of the devil” (1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 6:9, 1 Saint John 3:8). Likewise, Bishop Saint Paul did not regard salvation as a one-time event, but as a goal to be sought after, one that can be lost: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Saint Paul to the Philippians 2:12, 3:11-14, 1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 9:27, 10:12, Galatians 5:1;4, 1 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 4:1; 5:15).

            • MarcAlcan

              as long as you have people like the writer of this piece trying to throw the”separated brethren ” under the ecclesiastical bus of roman Catholicism

              They are not being thrown under the ecclesial bus. They purposely and wilfully chose to be there. They insist on remaining separated.

    • Declan Kennedy

      Just to point out that Elizabeth was the Queen of England at the time of the Spanish Armada. Anne was a later figure.

    • guest

      It is important to remember that we do not give glory to God by stirring up resentment, perhaps even hatred, of our brothers and sisters in Christ in the other Christian churches by setting the record straight in the name historical accuracy. We should never forget that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. Let us as Catholics be just as prepared to acknowledge the good other Christians do to build up the body of Christ as we are to defend our own tradition in doing the same. Our culture in the U.S. is not as friendly to any form of Christianity as it once was. All Christians need to work together to be a levin in society for our Lord Jesus Christ. There’s plenty of common ground among all Christians for that greatest of all human endeavors.

      • I’ve been writing and speaking long enough to know that people get their own emotions stirred up and draw conclusions that I had no intention to stir or conclude. 😀

    • Michael S Clifford

      Thanksgiving goes back further than that. Here’s an article called 6 Interesting Catholic Thanksgiving Facts You Need to Know by Dr Taylor Marshall.

      “When you’re sitting down for that wonderful feast on Thursday, here are 6 interesting Catholic Thanksgiving Facts you can share with your family. Print them out and read them aloud over some pumpkin (or pecan) pie!

      The history books will tell you that the first Thanksgiving was celebrated by the Protestant pilgrims of Massachusetts in 1621. Not so. There was the Catholic Thanksgiving of 1565 in Florida and another Catholic Thanksgiving of 1589 in Texas.

      The first American Thanksgiving was actually celebrated on September 8 (feast of the birth of the Blessed Virgin) in 1565 in St. Augustine, Florida. The Native Americans and Spanish settlers held a feast and the Holy Mass was offered. This was 56 years before the Puritan pilgrims of Massachusetts.Don Pedro Menendez came ashore amid the sounding of trumpets, artillery salutes and the firing of cannons to claim the land for King Philip II and Spain. The ship chaplain Fr. Francisco Lopez de Mendoza Grajales chanted the Te Deum and presented a crucifix that Menendez ceremoniously kissed. Then the 500 soldiers, 200 sailors and 100 families and artisans, along with the Timucuan Indians celebrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in gratitude to God.

      The second American Thanksgiving happened on April 30, 1598, when Spanish explorer Don Juan de Oñate requested the friars to say a Mass of Thanksgiving, after which he formally proclaimed “La Toma”, claiming the land north of the Rio Grande for the King of Spain. The men feasted on duck, goose, and fish from the river. The actors among them dressed and presented a play. All this took place twenty-three years before the Pilgrims set sail from England on the Mayflower.

      The Puritan pilgrims were violently anti-Catholic. They left England because they thought that the Church of England was too Catholic. These Puritans were strict Calvinists. The pilgrims also opposed celebrating Christmas, dancing, musical instruments in church, and even hymns as papistical.

      Squanto, the beloved hero of Thanksgiving at Plymouth Rock, was Catholic! (Here’s my full article on the Catholicism of Squanto.) Squanto had been enslaved by the English but he was freed by Spanish Franciscans. Squanto thus received baptism and became a Catholic. So it was a baptized Catholic Native American who orchestrated what became known as Thanksgiving.

      So while Thanksgiving may celebrate the Calvinist Separatists who fled England, Catholics might remember the same unjust laws that granted the crown of martyrdom to Thomas More, John Fisher, Edmund Campion, et al. are the same injustices that led the Pilgrims to Plymouth.”

      And don’t forget to raise your wine glass and recite the wonderful limerick of Hilaire Belloc:

      “Wherever the Catholic shines, there’s always laughter and good red wine. At least I’ve always found it so. Benedicamus Domino!”

      And let everyone remember that “Thanksgiving” in Greek is Eucharistia. Thus, the Body and Blood of Christ is the true “Thanksgiving Meal”.”

    • Michael S Clifford

      Thanksgiving goes back further than that. Here’s an article called 6 Interesting Catholic Thanksgiving Facts You Need to Know (http://taylormarshall.com/2013/11/6-interesting-catholic-thanksgiving.html) by Doctor Taylor Marshall.

      “When you’re sitting down for that wonderful feast on Thursday, here are 6 interesting Catholic Thanksgiving Facts you can share with your family. Print them out and read them aloud over some pumpkin (or pecan) pie!

      The history books will tell you that the first Thanksgiving was celebrated by the Protestant pilgrims of Massachusetts in 1621. Not so. There was the Catholic Thanksgiving of 1565 in Florida and another Catholic Thanksgiving of 1589 in Texas.

      The first American Thanksgiving was actually celebrated on September 8 (feast of the birth of the Blessed Virgin) in 1565 in St. Augustine, Florida. The Native Americans and Spanish settlers held a feast and the Holy Mass was offered. This was 56 years before the Puritan pilgrims of Massachusetts.Don Pedro Menendez came ashore amid the sounding of trumpets, artillery salutes and the firing of cannons to claim the land for King Philip II and Spain. The ship chaplain Fr. Francisco Lopez de Mendoza Grajales chanted the Te Deum and presented a crucifix that Menendez ceremoniously kissed. Then the 500 soldiers, 200 sailors and 100 families and artisans, along with the Timucuan Indians celebrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in gratitude to God.

      The second American Thanksgiving happened on April 30, 1598, when Spanish explorer Don Juan de Oñate requested the friars to say a Mass of Thanksgiving, after which he formally proclaimed “La Toma”, claiming the land north of the Rio Grande for the King of Spain. The men feasted on duck, goose, and fish from the river. The actors among them dressed and presented a play. All this took place twenty-three years before the Pilgrims set sail from England on the Mayflower.

      The Puritan pilgrims were violently anti-Catholic. They left England because they thought that the Church of England was too Catholic. These Puritans were strict Calvinists. The pilgrims also opposed celebrating Christmas, dancing, musical instruments in church, and even hymns as papistical.

      Squanto, the beloved hero of Thanksgiving at Plymouth Rock, was Catholic! (Here’s my full article on the Catholicism of Squanto.) Squanto had been enslaved by the English but he was freed by Spanish Franciscans. Squanto thus received baptism and became a Catholic. So it was a baptized Catholic Native American who orchestrated what became known as Thanksgiving.

      So while Thanksgiving may celebrate the Calvinist Separatists who fled England, Catholics might remember the same unjust laws that granted the crown of martyrdom to Thomas More, John Fisher, Edmund Campion, et al. are the same injustices that led the Pilgrims to Plymouth.”

      And don’t forget to raise your wine glass and recite the wonderful limerick of Hilaire Belloc:

      “Wherever the Catholic shines, there’s always laughter and good red wine. At least I’ve always found it so. Benedicamus Domino!”

      And let everyone remember that “Thanksgiving” in Greek is Eucharistia. Thus, the Body and Blood of Christ is the true “Thanksgiving Meal”.”

      • In this article I’m only talking about the root of the November Thanksgiving Holiday which is Puritan and anti Catholic. Not talking about what Marshall is saying, which is attempting to equate two things with the same name, but two completely different meanings. He’s convoluting.

        • Michael S Clifford

          I’m confused. The way I’ve always understood it was that the pilgrims were persecuted Catholics who landed on Plymouth Rock by the Mayflower, and they were being stalked by the Puritans who were Protestants being sent to hunt down the Christians for refusing to convert from Christianity to Protestantism.

          • RufusChoate

            Puritans/Pilgrims were a Calvinistic thread of Anglicanism and rabidly opposed to the Faith.

            • Michael S Clifford

              I recently read an article by Dr. Taylor Marshall Ph.D. citing the 1500s as the time of the Christian pilgrims, and the 1600s as the time of the Calvinist Protestant pilgrims. The Christians first landed in what’s now called Florida, then in what’s now called Texas; and the Protestants on Plymouth Rock.

            • RufusChoate

              Note the use of capital letter. The American “Pilgrims” in Massachusetts Bay Colony were in fact Brownists English Dissenters or early Separatists from the Church of England involved in the English Civil War. Protestantism appropriates many Christian/Catholic terms to grant themselves legitimacy that history and theology deny them.

              Taylor Marshall is correct to refer to Catholics who travel to sacred shrines for penance or edification as pilgrims (the practice dates back to the first century when catholics travelled to the Holy Land) but the Spaniards who established a fort in Saint Augustine, Florida in 1585 were soldiers/sailors and Priests explorers. They celebrated thanksgiving from the first mass said in the US because the Eucharist is Greek for Thanksgiving.

              Most Protestants being devoid of the Sacraments have to create special holidays to accommodate that lack. Thanksgiving has always been integral of Christian since the Apostles.

      • The Saint

        For a while it seemed you were going to say something intelligent Michael, but then you blew it with your conclusion.

        • Michael S Clifford

          You can tell that to Dr. Taylor Marshall whom I was quoting from the article I sites. I looked all that up for myself by the way. Thanksgiving really does originate with Catholic pilgrims in the 1500s and not Calvinist “pilgrims” in the 1600s as Protestants falsely claim. Maybe it’s your lack of comprehension skills that are showing. Did you ever think of that? I didn’t think so.

    • Michael S Clifford

      A word of caution for you: don’t throw passages at me taken out of context, and filtered through the lens of Protestant hermeneutics, and then turn around and falsely accuse me of throwing passages that you taken out of context. You can rest assured THAT won’t work with me. You just confirmed yourself to be a Protestant when you used the phrase “Roman Catholic”. That’s the terminology used by Protestants, not by Christians. Protestants are not Christians. If you truly believe ALL of the Word of God, from Genesis to Apocalypse, including Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1 Machabees, 2 Machabees, and the missing portions of Esther and Daniel, you’d be Catholic, that is Christian, not Orthodox, not Protestant, I’m a Christian, not an Orthodox, not a Protestant, and that’s all you need to concern yourself with PERIOD.

      (By the way, I don’t like Protestants.)

      • Laurence Charles Ringo

        Interesting,Clifford…”I don’t like Protestants”…you claim.One is left to wonder at your blatant hatred of Protestants (and you might try to water it down,but your disdain and hatred come through; I can literally feel it coming this post!!–Wow!! I have little use for the theology of the Jehovah’s Witnesses,but I’m commanded to love them as my neighbors,so…if your poorly veiled hatred of Protestants is the product of Catholicism,well…)—at any rate,your rants would be humorous if they weren’t so sad.What’s wrong with you??

        • Michael S Clifford

          You like putting words in people’s mouths, don’t you? I didn’t even mention hatred or disdain for Protestants. I simply don’t like them. Are you even capable of knowing the difference. It’s not by fault that you couldn’t, by your own admission, even understand what I was saying in my first reply to you. A Protestant is someone who knows Jesus founded the Catholic Church, refuses to be part of the Catholic Church, falsely claims to be a Christian, falsely accuses Christians of idolatry (exempli gratia, worshiping Mary, Saints, angels, statues, and relics), worships the Bible instead of the deity who inspired the men who wrote it and preserve them from error, misuses the it to bash the very Church who completed and preserved it, and the list goes on. A Christian is a disciple of Christ who has already been baptized into the Catholic Church. All Christians are Catholics, but not all Christians know they’re Catholics. When, and if, they discover their Catholics, they make the choice whether to remain Christians, and become visible members of the Church, or become Protestant and cease to be Christians. It’s impossible to be both a Christian and a Protestant at the same time. It’s called an oxymoron. How did the Jehovah’s Witnesses even come to this? They’re not even Trinitarians. I’m also commanded to love them all as my neighbors, so, trust me, I’m confession-bound. But, anyway, a poor hatred of Christians, or should I say Catholics, as they are the same thing, is the product of Protestantism. Your rants are what would be humorous if they weren’t so sad. What’s wrong with you?

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            Wow…For you to claim that there’s some actual qualitative difference between dislike,disdain and hatred tells the tale,Clifford…Tell me,sir:how many Protestants do you personally know? Do you actually tell your Protestant friends(presuming you have any) to their faces that you actually don’t like them? I have more than a few Catholic friends,and they know how I view the institution that they claim adherence to,and yet we are great friends,and I don’t just”like”them–they’re great people,caring,loving,generous…and they would say the same about me,despite our ecclesiastical differences.Frankly,for you to trumpet your dislike and disdain for Protestants should send you to your confessional; I consider that a demonic spirit,the spirit that fueled your Inquisition.At any rate,I’m going to close this back-and-forth for tonight,Clifford[ it’s 10:30pm where I am,and I want to look at the verses you posted.],but I want to leave you with this: On page 235 of Catechism of the Catholic Church,we find this in section 818…”All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church”…Now,I want to be absolutely clear here: those of us who reject the strained interpretations of Scripture propagated by Roman Catholicism don’t need affirmation by you that we are Christian; the Word of God confirms that,and that’s enough for us.Roman Catholicism is no one’s “god”,your pope is no one’s”saviour”( The insane claims of Boniface VIII’s”UnamSanctum”notwithstanding),and YOU,my friend,have not been designated as my judge.If My Saviour has relinquished that job to YOU,I didn’t get that memo.So…until manana,and—PEACE IN CHRIST, ALWAYS! [ Try love instead of dislike,Clifford.You might save yourself a trip to the confessional.]

            • Michael S Clifford

              which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men (1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 9:16, Saint Paul to the Hebrews 11:6).” (Catechism 848).

              Well look at that! Second-Vatican-Council-inspired-passages that make it clear that none of what you quoted even applies to you, thus contradicted your false justification of calling yourself a Christian while knowingly rejecting Christ’s Church, and, in doing so, rejecting Christ Himself (Acts 9:4). So you are not, nor are you to be called, a Christian. Nice try. A faithful Christian like myself won’t be “schooled” by a heretic like yourself. And don’t even think about ever again using, or misusing, the very teachings of the very Church you reject. Now let me be perfectly clear those of us who reject the heresies of Protestantism do not need your affirmation that we are Christians. The same cannot be truthfully said the other way around. The true Word of God confirms this. You adhere to what you wish the Word of God was. We adhere to what the word of God really is. You’re not part of the Bride and Mystical Body. Therefore you are not a Christian. So stop pretending to be!

              How many times do I have to tell you? There’s nothing Roman about Catholicism. I just explained why earlier. You Protestants just don’t listen, do you?

              No one ever said the pope was a savior. The pope is just the lead pastor on earth. I am not your friend (Saint Matthew 18:17, 1 Saint John 1:10). No one never said I was your judge. And don’t even think about misusing any passages (Saint Matthew 7:1) as most of you Protestants tend to do (Saint Mark 3:31, Saint Paul to the Romans 3:23 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 3:16,17). There’s nothing you’ve got that I can’t counter! Your theology’s a joke! You did nothing to refute the “dumb Protestant” stereotype! All you did was reinforce it! Shalom!

            • Michael S Clifford

              (picking up from part 2 of the reply) Well look at that! Second-Vatican-Council-inspired-passages that make it clear that none of what you quoted even applies to you, thus contradicted your false justification of calling yourself a Christian while knowingly rejecting Christ’s Church, and, in doing so, rejecting Christ Himself (Acts 9:4). So you are not, nor are you to be called, a Christian. Nice try. A faithful Christian like myself won’t be “schooled” by a heretic like yourself. And don’t even think about ever again using, or misusing, the very teachings of the very Church you reject. Now let me be perfectly clear those of us who reject the heresies of Protestantism do not need your affirmation that we are Christians. The same cannot be truthfully said the other way around. The true Word of God confirms this. You adhere to what you wish the Word of God was. We adhere to what the word of God really is. You’re not part of the Bride and Mystical Body. Therefore you are not a Christian. So stop pretending to be!

              How many times do I have to tell you? There’s nothing Roman about Catholicism. I just explained why earlier. You Protestants just don’t listen, do you?

              No one ever said the pope was a savior. The pope is just the lead pastor on earth. I am not your friend (Saint Matthew 18:17, 1 Saint John 1:10). No one never said I was your judge. And don’t even think about misusing any passages (Saint Matthew 7:1) as most of you Protestants tend to do (Saint Mark 3:31, Saint Paul to the Romans 3:23 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 3:16,17). There’s nothing you’ve got that I can’t counter! Your theology’s a joke! You did nothing to refute the “dumb Protestant” stereotype! All you did was reinforce it! Shalom!

            • Michael S Clifford

              I meant to get back to you sooner. But I have to wake up early in the morning to go to work. It’s 3:45pm where I am right now.
              I lost count of how many Protestants I personally know. Most of them are jerks. All my friends are Catholics. All Christians are Catholics. It’s just that a lot of them don’t know it yet. A Catholic is a Christian who has been baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Whether or not that Christian knows he’s a Catholic is irrelevant. So, yes, all of my friends are Catholics. It’s just that most of them just don’t know it yet.

            • Laurence Charles Ringo

              Dude…you sound seriously confused,and qouting Roman Catholic groupthink doesn’t really help you.Frankly,I was under the obviously erroneous impression that dialoguing with you would be sort of fun,but you’ve shown yourself to be a vicious,judgmental hater who has some serious anger issues.So…get over yourself and stop pretending you’re some kind of agent for God,sniffing out who’s Christian and who’s not.It’s silly and factious.I’ll say it ONE MORE TIME: Roman Catholicism is NOT in charge of Almighty God and He made your bogus,pretensious,man-centered institution NO ONE’S saviour. Seriously,Clifford? Your mind is so indoctrinated,you’ve so willingly submitted your will and intellect to your presumed ecclesiastical masters, I.e the so-called”magisterium “,that I’m willing to bet that if your ecclesiastical masters told that the sky was purple,you would’nt even go outside to check!! As for me,Galatians 5 : 1 is one of my go-to verses for my glorious liberty IN CHRIST.Perhaps you might want to reflect on it.I’ll get back with you.

            • Michael S Clifford

              You’re the one who needs to get over yourself, and stop pretending you’re so kind of agent for God. Sniffing out who’s Christian and who’s not is a piece of cake. I’ll say it ONE MORE TIME: there’s NOTHING Roman about Catholicism, also known as Christianity. And I’ll say it ONE MORE TIME: NO ONE EVER SAID the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church was anyone’s Savior. You made that up yourself. And I’ll say THIS too: NO ONE EVER SAID Roman Catholicism was in charge of Almighty God. Almighty God created the Catholic Church to govern us. Learn how to pay attention for once.

            • Michael S Clifford

              You’re the indoctrinated one. I didn’t become a Christian until a few years ago. If you really understood Christianity, also known as Catholicism, you know that the pope can only speak infallibly (Saint John 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:12-14) under three conditions: he must be speaking, not from his own person, but with the full authority of his papacy, he must be teaching at divinely revealed doctrine on faith and morals, and his declaration must be binding on the whole Church (Acts 10, 15). Saint Paul was talking to the bondage to sin (Saint Paul to the Galatians 5:1). Nice try. And who wrote the first epistles? The first bishops of the Church? So “sola Scriptura” doesn’t work after all? Oh I already knew that!

            • Laurence Charles Ringo

              The so-called ” pope”can’t speak”infallibly” about anything;the” Kidnapper Pope”,Pius IX,invented that dogma,and since it’s only been used twice since he invented it,what practical purpose does it serve,Clifford.If it was presumably concocted by the Holy Spirit(THAT is seriously hilarious,dude),why did so many theologians fight against it?

            • Michael S Clifford

              The pope (Isaias 22:20-25) can speak infallibly when guided by the Holy Spirit (Saint John 14:26, 15:26, 16:12-14). A dogma is, by definition, a divine revelation. Therefore you can’t invent a dogma. It’s called ex-cathedra. Christians believed in the infallibility long before Blessed Pope Saint Pius IB declared it. I’ll tell you what was invented: the rapture in the 1800s. Not to mention “sola Scriptura” and “sola fide”, in the 1500s. You keep your man-made traditions (Saint Paul to the Colossians 2:8), and let me keep my apostolic traditions (Saint Paul to the Thessalonians 2:14(15), 3:6).

            • MarqGeorge

              And who determines the pope is infallible? You are the epitome of the Pharisees! Tradition? When Yeshua was asked by the Jews John 6:28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

              Nowhere in that passage does it contain the words the Catholic Church. Salvation has always been the same both in the Tanach and Brit HaKhadasha!

              Catholics are just like the woman at the well, John 4:22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews.

              Salvation is of the Jews whom the Catholics hate just as Satan. Salvation is not the Catholic Church no matter how much you want to spiritualize it.

              Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a contribution for the poor of the saints that are in Jerusalem. 27 For it hath pleased them; and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, they ought also in carnal things to minister to them. Does the Catholic Church give money to the Jews of Jerusalem? nope, they steal from them.

              All of Israel belongs to the Jews and the Vatican is trying to steal it from them. Joel 3:1 For behold in those days, and in that time when I shall bring back the captivity of Juda and Jerusalem:

              2 I will gather together all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Josaphat: and I will plead with them there for my people, and for my inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and have parted my land.

              3 And they have cast lots upon my people: and the boy they have put in the stews, and the girl they have sold for wine, that they might drink.

              4 But what have you to do with me, O Tyre, and Sidon, and all the coast of the Philistines? will you revenge yourselves on me? and if you revenge yourselves on me, I will very soon return you a recompense upon your own head. 5 For you have taken away my silver and my gold: and my desirable and most beautiful things you have carried into your temples. 6 And the children of Juda, and the children of Jerusalem you have sold to the children of the Greeks, that you might remove them far off from their own country. 7 Behold, I will raise them up out of the place wherein you have sold them: and I will return your recompense upon your own heads. 8 And I will sell your sons, and your daughters by the hands of the children of Juda, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, a nation far off, for the Lord hath spoken it.

              9 Proclaim ye this among the nations: prepare war, rouse up the strong: let them come, let all the men of war come up.

              10 Cut your ploughshares into swords, and your spades into spears. Let the weak say: I am strong.

              11 Break forth, and come, all ye nations, from round about, and gather yourselves together: there will the Lord cause all thy strong ones to fall down.

              12 Let them arise, and let the nations come up into the valley of Josaphat: for there I will sit to judge all nations round about.

              13 Put ye in the sickles, for the harvest is ripe: come and go down, for the press is full, the fats run over: for their wickedness is multiplied.

              14 Nations, nations in the valley of destruction: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of destruction.

              15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars have withdrawn their shining.

              16 And the Lord shall roar out of Sion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem: and the heavens and the earth shall be moved, and the Lord shall be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

              17 And you shall know that I am the Lord your God, dwelling in Sion my holy mountain: and Jerusalem shall be holy and strangers shall pass through it no more.

              18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down sweetness, and the hills shall flow with milk: and waters shall flow through all the rivers of Juda: and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the Lord, and shall water the torrent of thorns.

              19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom a wilderness destroyed: because they have done unjustly against the children of Juda, and have shed innocent blood in their land.

              20 And Judea shall be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem to generation and generation.

              21 And I will cleanse their blood which I had not cleansed: and the Lord will dwell in Sion.

              Since Yeshua will reign from Yerushalayim it is a testimony against the Church of Rome!

            • Michael S Clifford

              You’re the epitome of Pharisee and Sadducee Tradition. Your “doctrine” of sola Scriptura is a joke. Your “Faith” is but a rip off of ours. You treat your perversion of the Holy Bible like an idol which you love instead of God. We use the real Holy Bible as a history lesson book of Faith and morals.

              “You shall not bear false witnesses.” (Exodus 20:16)

              If you were a real Christian, you’d have thought of that Commandment before posting such nonsense and abusing Holy Scripture to reinforce your anti-Christian lies. Protestants are really the ones like the woman at the well (St. John 4:22).

              “And I will give to you the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever you bind on Earth will be bound also in Heaven. And whatsoever you loose upon Earth with be loosed also in Heaven.” (St. Matthew 16:19 recording Jesus to St. Peter)

              “He who hears you hears Me; he who despises you despises Me; and He who despises Me despises Him Who sent Me.” (St. Luke 10:16 recording Jesus to St. Peter)

              “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.” (St. John 14:6 recording Jesus)

              “We have no king but Caesar!” (St. John 19:30 recording the Jews who knew Jesus to be God but not knowing the Wrath they brought upon themselves)

              “Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.” (St. John 20:30)

              “Simon son of John, do you love Me more than these?” “Yes, Lord, You know that I love You.” “Feed My lambs.” “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” “Yes, Lord, You know that I love You.” “Feed My lambs.” “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” “Lord, You know all things. You know that I love You. “Feed My sheep. Amen, amen I say to you, when thou were younger, you girded yourself, and walked where you would. But when you shall be old, you shall stretch forth your hands, and another shall gird thee, and lead you whither you would not.”
              (St. John 21:15-18 recording Jesus and St. Peter)

              “But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.” (St. John 21:25)

              Relook at St. John 20:30.

              “Saul, why do you persecute Me?” (Acts of the Apostles 9:4)

              “And they conversed there in the Church a whole year. And they taught a great multitude, so that at Antioch the disciples were first named Christians.” (Acts of the Apostles 11:26)

              “Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the Head of the Church. He is the savior of His Body.” (St. Paul to the Ephesians 5:22-23)

              “But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.” (1 St. Paul to St. Timothy 3:15)

              “And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold, and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication. And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration. And the angel said to me: “Why do thou wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast which carries her, which has the seven heads and ten horns. The beast, which you saw, was, and is not, and will come up out of the bottomless pit, and go into destruction. And the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was, and is not. And here is the understanding that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sits, and they are seven kings. Five are fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he is come, he must remain a short time. And the beast which was, and is not, the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into destruction. And the ten horns which you saw, are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but shall receive power as kings one hour after the beast. These have one design, and their strength and power they will deliver to the beast. These will fight with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and those who are with Him are called, and elect, and faithful. And he said to me: “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which you saw in the beast, these will hate the harlot, and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh, and will burn her with fire. For God has given into their hearts to do that which pleases Him. Those who give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled. And the woman which you saw, is the great city, which has kingdom over the kings of the earth.” And after these things, I saw another angel come down from Heaven, having great power, and the earth was enlightened with his glory. And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen! And is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every unclean spirit, and the hold of every unclean and hateful bird, because all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her; and the merchants of the earth have been made rich by the power of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying: “Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and the Lord has remembered her iniquities. Render to her as she also has rendered to you; and double unto her double according to her works in the cup wherein she hath mingled, mingle ye double unto her. As much as she has glorified herself, and lived in delicacies, so much torment and sorrow give ye to her, because she said in her heart: “I sit a queen, and am no widow; and sorrow I will not see.” Therefore will her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine, and she will be burnt with the fire, because God is strong, who will judge her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication, and lived in delicacies with her, will weep, and bewail themselves over her, when they will see the smoke of her burning, standing afar off for fear of her torments, saying: “Alas! Alas! That great city Babylon, that mighty city!” For, in one hour, is your judgment come. And the merchants of the earth will weep, and mourn over her. For no man will buy their merchandise any more. Merchandise of gold and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all your wood, and all manner of vessels of ivory, and all manner of vessels of precious stone, and of brass, and of iron, and of marble, and cinnamon, and odors, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. And the fruits of the desire of your soul are departed from you, and all fat and goodly things are perished from thee, and they will find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, who were made rich, will stand afar off from her, for fear of her torments, weeping and mourning, and saying: “Alas! Alas! That great city, which was clothed with fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and was gilt with gold, and precious stones, and pearls.” For, in one hour, are so great riches come to nought, and every shipmaster, and all who sail into the lake, and mariners, and as many as work in the sea, stood afar off. And cried, seeing the place of her burning, saying: “What city is like to this great city?” And they cast dust upon their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying: “Alas! Alas! That great city, wherein all were made rich, who had ships at sea, by reason of her prices!” For, in one hour, she is made desolate. Rejoice over her, you Heaven, and holy apostles and prophets. For God has judged your judgment on her.”” (Apocalypse 17:3-18:20)

              Read this in context with Isaias; Jeremias; Ezechiel; Daniel; Osee; St. John 19:30 and ask yourself since why the Catholic Church would ever give money to the Harlot who crucified her Divine Spouse, when the Catholic Church ever truly controlled the kings of the earth or was the center of trade and commerce of the world, or how the Catholic Church can be the Harlot when the Harlot was a city found in the 1st century and most of you claim the Catholic Church was founded by Caesar St. Constantine despite historical evidence to the contrary.

              “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be. Even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Bp. St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans 8:2 in A.D. 107)

              Relook at Acts of the Apostles 9:4; 11:26. Salvation is only in the Catholic Church no matter how much you want to bastardize Holy Scripture to deny it to give yourself false hope of inheriting Heaven. Now get this through your head: you are not a Christian. Only Traditionalist “Roman” Catholics are Christians. No one else. So stop pretending to be.

            • Padre

              Mr. Clifford, just read your comment on Catholicism.org “Sedevacantism and Schism.” You may or may not be aware, the St. Benedict Center is NOT recognized by the NH Roman Catholic Diocese. They are a rogue ‘catholic’ group in NH. Two books have been written about their bullying and intimidating tactics used against a small town and its people. Both books are available on Amazon. “Deliver Us…a religious cult vs Richmond, NH” and “Lead Us Not…the true story of the first religious discrimination lawsuit in NH.”

            • Michael S Clifford

              NH as in New Hampshire? No. I live in Chesapeake, Virginia, 23324, and I go to the St. Benedict’s there in the Richmond “Roman Catholic” Diocese. Frs. Neal Nichols, David Nix, and Anthony Forte are the priests there from FSP although I prefer SSPX over them. Who are the authors of these books? Are they “Roman Catholic”?

            • Padre

              Yes, New Hampshire, I know nothing of the author. Most people are unaware the St. Benedict Center in New Hampshire is unrecognized by the local Diocese and the Universal Church.

            • Michael S Clifford

              Good thing I’m not in New Hampshire, but I have a friend with relatives from New Hampshire, so I’ll pass that along to her. Thank you.

            • Trimelda McDaniels

              I am curious. Why are so many Protestants that you know “jerks”? Do you mean in their characters, actions, beliefs? What?

            • Michael S Clifford

              My uncle David Perok Sr, his lap dog buddies Michael B, Edward Funk and Elizabeth P are four examples of Protestant who are assholes in their characters alone. They think they know everything when they don’t even know their history, and, when they have true history told to them, they ignore it. The same protestant anti-Catholic rhetoric is really Muslim anti-Christian rhetoric. Take the Mary-worship myth, for example, which can be found in the Quran (5:116). Did you know that, while all the major battles of the Crusades ended in the 1200s, there were still small minor battles as late as the 1500s, and the Protestants side with the Muslims against the Christians? I don’t take kindly to those who falsely pass themselves off as Christians while bashing the real Christians.

            • Michael S Clifford

              May I remind you what happened to the Christians who would not secede from Christ’s Church? They were martyred by founders of your manmade “Churches”.

            • Laurence Charles Ringo

              Seriously,dude? If there’s ANY man-centered religious institution who’ve murdered/martyred more people than the Roman Catholic Church—NAME IT.Do you REALLY want to go there?? You don’t seem to realize that the whole vile,sordid,soul-killing history of your church testifies AGAINST it; your religious institution is carrying waay too much atrocious baggage to make it a viable option to adhere to.Over 25 years of studying Roman Catholicism has shown me that . Seriously,Clifford…

            • Michael S Clifford

              Have you ever heard of blood-libel? The Protestant “Church” have been drinking the blood at the saints since 1517 and framing the Catholic Church for their atrocities. The Protestant “Church” is the same “Church” that burned all the Douay-Rheims bibles to maintain their myth that the Catholic Church hid the Bible despite the historical fact that the Douay-Rheims Bible was released one year before the Original 1611 King James “Bible” was released.

            • Michael S Clifford

              So if the Protestant “Church” lied about that what else do you think the Protestant “Church” lied about? Christians were executed for, either staying loyal to, or reconciling with God in the Catholic Church. So don’t even go there. For someone who claims to have studied Christianity, also known as Catholicism, for over twenty-five years, you suck at understanding it.

            • Michael S Clifford

              Don’t be mad because I know my history and you don’t know yours. Learn your history and don’t be a hater.

              If you knew your Church and Bible history, you’d know that the Bishop Saint Ignatius of Antioch identified the true Church as the “Catholic Church” in 107 (Bishop Saint Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans 8:2), Bishop a Saint Paul said the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 3:15), he was referring to the Old Testament alone as the “all Scripture” (2 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 3:16-17), “Scripture alone” refutes itself (Saint John 20:30,31; 21:25, 2 Saint Peter 1:20, 3:16) no matter how much you try to manipulate and take the Bible out of context, there’s no Scripture without Tradition, there’s no Tradition without the Church, the Catholic Church weeded out all false Scripture, complied all true Scripture into the Bible, the Bible has always had seventy-three books, the Catholic Church did not add any books, Martin Luther rearranged the Psalms, added removed Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1Machabees, and 2Machabees, plus portions of Esther and Daniel, plus Saint James, Saint Jude, 1 Saint John, 2 Saint John, 3 Saint John, and Apocalypse from, added and subtract words to and from his “Gutenberg Bible”, took “Jesus” out of Habacuc 3:18, Saint Matthew 5:1, 8:26, 9:23, 16:15, 17:19, 20:17, 22:20, 26:18, Saint Mark 9:15, 16:1, 16:19, Saint Luke 4:38, 6:11, 14:1, 18:31; 20:3, 22:2, 24:36, Saint John, 2:8, 4:1, Acts 5:41, 9:17, 9:20, 10:48, 16:7, 18:4, 18:25, 24:24, 2 Saint Paul to the Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 4:17; 2 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 2:14, Saint Paul to the Romans 8:34; 15:16; 16:9; 1 Saint Paul to the Ephasians 3:6; to the Philippians 3:9; Saint Paul to the Colossians 1:7; 2:2; 4:12; Saint Paul to Saint Philemon 8; Saint Jude 5,24,25, Saint Paul to the Hebrews 4:14-16; 9:24, added “Jesus” to Saint Matthew 8:5, 13:36,51, 14:14,25, 15:16,30, 16:6, 17:11, 24:2, Saint Mark 5:19, 7:27, 10:50, 11:14,15, Saint Luke 7:22, 8:35, 10:21,39,41, 13:2, Saint John 4:46, 13:3, 19:23, 20:21, 21:17, Acts 3:26; 9:28; Saint Paul to the Ephasians 3:9; 1 Saint John 5:20, took “Christ” out of 1 Kings 2:10; 2:35; 12:3; 12:5; 16:6; 2 Kings 22:51; 2 Paralipomenon 6:42; Psalms 2:2; 17(18):51; 19(20):7; 83(84):10; 88(89):39; 88(89):52; 131(132):10; 131(132):17; Isaias 45:1; Lamentations 4:20; Habucuc 3:13; Acts 4:33; 10:48; 28:31; 1 Saint Paul to the Thessalonians 4:17; 13:20; 1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 2:1; 4:16; 5:5; 2 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 5:15; 11:4; 2 Saint Paul to the Galatians 4:31; Saint Paul to the Romans 3:26;4: 24; 8:35; 10:17; Saint Paul to the Ephesians 5:21; 5:29; Saint Paul to Colossians 3:15; 3:17; I of Saint Peter 3:15; Saint Jude 24, 25; Saint Paul to the Hebrews 10:19; Apocalypse 11:15-19, and added “Christ” to Saint Matthew 23:8, Saint Mark 3:6, Saint Luke 4:41, Saint John 4:42, 5:20, Acts 16:32, Saint Paul to the Galatians 3:17, 4:7, Saint Paul to the Ephesians 3:8, the Original 1611 “Authorized” King James Version was translated from Luther’s German and had all seventy-three books until they took out Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1Machabees, and 2Machabees, plus portions of Esther and Daniel, forgot to take out Saint James, Saint Jude, 1 Saint John, 2 Saint John, 3 Saint John, and Apocalypse in 1629, and released as “the Original 1611” “Authorized” King James Version, so you’re lucky your bible even has Saint James, Saint Jude, 1 Saint John, 2 Saint John, 3 Saint John, and Apocalypse to complete your New Testament.

              I’ve checked all translations for authenticity. So give me a break. Pope Benedict XVI declared the Second Vatican Council non-binding in 2012. And even if it was binding, it still would not contradict the Council of Trent, because the Church did not change, because the Church cannot change with the Holy Spirit guiding her. Need I remind you Jesus left the Church in charge (Saint Luke 10:16, Saint John 21:15-19), so yes the Church has the God-given authority to define your standing with my Savior. It’s your howling that makes you sound asinine. No one never said God ever put me in charge. God still hasn’t put you, or your false, self-ordained “pastors”, in charge either. Take your own advice, get over yourself, and seek help now, my adversary.

            • Michael S Clifford

              When looking up Scripture, be aware the Douay-Rheims Version and the Catholic Public Domain Version are the only two uncorrupted English translations, and out of those two only the Douay-Rheims Version has the imprimatur.

              You quoted from Catechism paragraphs inspired by the Second Vatican Council. That council’s pastoral. That means it’s nonbinding. Nice try. But since you want to go there, you should know that, even if it were binding, you still wouldn’t qualify as a Christian.

            • Laurence Charles Ringo

              What,are you a manuscript expert,Clifford? The two “uncorrupted English translations”are so based on what?Your say-so? Give me a break.And I could care less about your claim that what is said in your catechism is”non-binding”according to you; it’s in the Roman Catholic Catechism,a document I would assume all Catholics are commanded to submit to(Except,of course,Clifford,LOL!)-But as I stated earlier,neither YOU,the Roman Catholic Church,or any other man-centered,bogus,self-proclaimed religious body defines my standing in My Saviour. That’s the very height of arrogant folly,and all your howling about just makes you sound asinine,Get over yourself,Clifford—Almighty God STILL hasn’t put YOU in charge.SEEK HELP,MY FRIEND.NOW.

            • Michael S Clifford

              “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

              “How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body. “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on Earth, is necessary for salvation. The one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation. He is present to us in His Body which is the Church. He Himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it (Saint Mark 16:16, Saint John 3:5).” (Catechism 846).

              “This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” (Catechism 847).

              “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men (1 Saint Paul to the Corinthians 9:16, Saint Paul to the Hebrews 11:6).” (Catechism 848).

              Well look at that! Second-Vatican-Council-inspired-passages that make it clear that none of what you quoted even applies to you, thus contradicted your false justification of calling yourself a Christian while knowingly rejecting Christ’s Church, and, in doing so, rejecting Christ Himself (Acts 9:4).

            • Laurence Charles Ringo

              Doesn’t matter,Clifford;I merely quoted your Catechism to make a point that you’ve very clear you disagree with,so…according to #847,I don’t even have to be Christian,Catholic,Protestant or anything else to…”achieve eternal salvation”…Wow!! So,according to your OWN document,if we all seek God(whoever He/She/it is),and strive to live right,we’ll all get in anyway!! That being the case what need we of Christ? No wonder you Roman Catholics hate the Bible,or worse,put your own spin on it!! And if it doesn’t agree with the spin,why,you’ll just invent a dogma or “tradition” to agree with your doctrines! (I had actually forgotten your propensity for doing that; thanks for the reminder!)—WOW! [ By the way,Our Saviour’s Name is JESUS CHRIST,NOT Roman Catholicism–Acts 4:12 ].

            • Michael S Clifford

              It matters because I know you quoted the Catechism with dishonest intentions just like Satan this honestly quoted the Psalms when tempting God (Saint Matthew 4:2-11). I knew you’d ignore 846 which clearly states that you cannot be saved when you knowingly reject the Church’s authority which Jesus gave her. You also says ignored the part in 847 which says “those who do not know” “through no fault of their own”. That alone makes it clear that those passages do not apply to you. If we Christians hated the Bible, the Church wouldn’t have given us one, and we wouldn’t read it during Mass every Sunday. You Protestants are the ones putting your own spin on it, and then falsely accuse us of putting our own spin on it when we call you out for putting your own spin on it. That doesn’t work with me. You may not be used to a real Christian knowing the Truth his Faith, but you just met your match, Protestant.

              You clearly have no idea what a dogma is. It’s a divine revelation from the Holy Spirit to the pope to give to the whole Church. God can neither deceive or be deceived. Oh yeah and that last passage you cited (Acts 4:12) had nothing to do with God appointing teachers for us. Nice try. Give up already.

            • Michael S Clifford

              So you aren’t, nor are you to be called, a Christian. Nice try. A faithful Christian like myself won’t be “schooled” by a heretic like yourself. And don’t even think about ever again using, or misusing, the very teachings of the very Church you reject.

              Now let me be perfectly clear. Those of us who reject the heresies of Protestantism do not need your affirmation that we are Christians. The same cannot be truthfully said the other way around. The true Word of God confirms this. We adhere to what the Word of God really is. You adhere to what you wish the Word of God was. You’re not part of the Bride and Mystical Body. Therefore you’re not a Christian. So stop pretending to be!

              How many times do I have to tell you? There’s nothing Roman about Catholicism. I just explained why earlier. You Protestants just don’t listen, do you?

              No one ever said the pope was a savior. The pope is just the chosen man of God, the lead bishop, pastor, and priest on earth.

              I’m not your friend (Saint Matthew 18:17, 1 Saint John 1:10). No one ever said I was your judge. And don’t even think about misusing any passages (Saint Matthew 7:1) as most of you Protestants tend to do (Exodus 20:4,5, Leviticus 26:1, Saint Mark 3:31, Saint Paul to the Romans 3:23 Saint Paul to Saint Timothy 3:16,17).

              You’ve done nothing to refute the “dumb Protestant” stereotype. All you managed to do was reinforce it. But don’t worry. Because the Muslims, Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are in far worse standing than you are.

    • Mr_Ben

      Wow. Good point. I am so much aware how Christmas is being drifted away from its purpose, and becoming more of a materialistic celebration. St. Valentines days seems to be already lost in purpose. But I have no idea about Thanksgiving (cuz I don’t live there anyway, and we don’t celebrate it.) Thank you for your insight.

      -Alvin

    • RufusChoate

      Nicely done and very true. The Puritans and the Pilgrims were regicides who won the English Civil War and created a Theocracy under Oliver Cromwell a distant ancestor to the Cromwell who participated in the creation of the Anglican Church and martyred Saints Thomas More and John Fisher. Upon the Stuart restoration they were out of power and held suspect and fled to New England where they engaged in the same oppression at they did in England. They are both antithetical to Catholicism but also the founding principles of the United States.

      Thanksgiving is a American Protestant Creation myth but we should take every opportunity to Thank God for all he has giving us.

      • Thanks Rufus. Good comment!!!

      • Paul Bevillard

        Thank you for the info. I will be pasting this in a word document for my own research. Not to discredit what you wrote, but to enlighten myself further of the Puritans and Pilgrims.

    • Marq you came to the wrong website with statements that don’t support history, reason, and logic.

      1. NO Pagan God had an annual feast on Dec 25.

      2. Over a CENTURY before Catholicism was tolerated in the Roman Empire they were celebrating Dec 25 as the birthday of Jesus.

      3. No one knows the exact day Jesus was born.

      4. The early Catholics debated the date of Easter, so you can’t say that was a hijack of the Pagan holiday either. The whole Easter Bunny thing isn’t Christian.

      5. Saint Nicholas was a REAL PERSON. He was Bishop and was at the Council of Nicaea. He is a Saint. The whole Santa Claus thing isn’t Christian, it’s commercial.

      6. The whole Catholic Apostasy thing is illogical – Dealt with that in this article here —> Anti-Catholic Myths and Lies: #1 Emperor Constantine Founded the Catholic Church – http://www.davidlgray.info/blog/2015/10/myths-and-lies-1/

      7. Layout of the city of Washington D.C. – Yes, INTENTIONALLY Masonic – I was a Freemason for over a decade. Vatican layout intentionally Masonic – NO.

      • MarqGeorge

        Thanks Dave for taking the time to respond in such a timely manner.

        I do not want to go over everything point by point so I’ll only highlight a few.

        You said, “NO Pagan God had an annual feast on Dec 25.” First I never said they did, but yes they did. Second It is too easy to refute that assessment. http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html

        You said, “No one knows the exact day Jesus was born.” You are ignorant of Judaism. Shame on you for Yeshua said, “Salvation is of the Jews.” http://messianicfellowship.50webs.com/yeshuabirth1.html

        You said, “The early Catholics debated the date of Easter, so you can’t say that was a hijack of the Pagan holiday either. The whole Easter Bunny thing isn’t Christian.” Neither is Easter Christian. Easter was a pagan holiday dedicated to Ishtar (pronounced E-star) the Goddess of Fertility which was in the spring. To say Easter is not pagan is like saying Baal is not pagan, because we debated on when it was to be celebrated. http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_02.asp

        You said, ” Layout of the city of Washington D.C. – Yes, INTENTIONALLY Masonic – I was a Freemason for over a decade. Vatican layout intentionally Masonic – NO.” You misread what I said. I said, “One only needs to see the pagan obelisk in front of the Vatican to see who they truly worship. ”

        It represented the sun god Ra! Where in scripture does G-d say to take monuments to pagan gods and make them holy? He doesn’t He says to smash them. Also, no one can take away the symbolism it is impossible. An obelisk is also known as a phallic symbol especially when placed inside a circle the yoni or vesica piscis. The symbolism is incontrovertible.

        Freemasonry was not around at the time of the Vatican Obelisk, but it is definitely of the Knights Templar who were publicly banned, but were still pulling the strings. My grandfather was a 32nd degree mason and it is he who got me into studying it. He warned me to never join as he resigned when he discovered it’s hidden agenda.

        It is not my intent to debate but discuss. If my statements appear confrontational or impertinent it is not intended to be.

        • LOL I love people like you. You’ll believe a MYTH that took thousands of years to develop and have contradictory stories, but won’t believe the testimony of those who knew Jesus, knew those who knew Jesus, knew those who knew those who knew Jesus that HAVE documents, just under 2,000 years ago, whose stories DO NOT conflict. ROFL

          Dude, i don’t which VERSION of the Mirtha Myths says Dec 25, but most don’t. In fact Mithra had NO PUBLIC WORSHIP. That cult was a secret cult. Rome’s The festival of natalis Invicti was a general festival of the ascent of the new sun. It didn’t belong to ANY pagan religion.

          So I said NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE WHEN JESUS WAS BORN, and then you sent me an article saying YES WE DO, but I scroll down to the bottom of that article and it says this: “When was Yeshua born? Nothing is absolutely certain, because we are dealing with implications and assumptions, but a good guess from the Scriptures and history is September 29, 5 B.C.E.”

          Concerning the Obelisk, that thing was brought from Egypt early in the first century, along with a bunch of others. If you want to assign some sort of power or machination to it – have fun. It’s just an obleski to me, and there is NO worship ceremony that EVER takes place by Catholics around it. There is nothing in the Catechism that talks about an obelisk. Just as there is nothing in there that talks about the artwork in St. Peter’s Basilica.

          • MarqGeorge

            You said, “LOL I love people like you. You’ll believe a MYTH that took thousands of years to develop and have contradictory stories, but won’t believe the testimony of those who knew Jesus, knew those who knew Jesus, knew those who knew those who knew Jesus that HAVE documents, just under 2,000 years ago, whose stories DO NOT conflict. ROFL”

            The following is a quote from the 2000 Encyclopædia Britannica, Volume 11 ; page 390.

            You said, “Dude, i don’t which VERSION of the Mirtha Myths says Dec 25, but most don’t. In fact Mithra had NO PUBLIC WORSHIP. That cult was a secret cult. Rome’s The festival of natalis Invicti was a general festival of the ascent of the new sun. It didn’t belong to ANY pagan religion.”

            The following is a quote from the 2000 Encyclopædia Britannica, Volume 11 ; page 390.

            “During the later periods of Roman history, sun worship gained in importance and ultimately led to what has been called a ‘solar monotheism.’ Nearly all the gods of the period were possessed of Solar qualities, and both Christ and Mithra acquired the traits of solar deities. The feast of Sol and Victus (open unconquered Sun) on December 25th was celebrated with great joy, and eventually this date was taken over by the Christians as Christmas, the birthday of Christ.”

            Whether it was religious or not depends on your definition of religion. It was a pagan holiday. Jeremiah clearly says nothing concerning religion but custom.

            Jeremiah 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

            2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

            3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

            4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

            I accept “sola scriptura,” I do not believe all those who KNEW Yeshua. Did the Pharisees, Sadducees, etc. etc. know Yeshua? Yep, do you accept their testimony? Did Judas Iscariot know Yeshua? Yep, would you believe his testimony?

            Those that contradict scriptures I reject. For example “Clement of Rome” to the Corinthians.

            Chap. XXV. The phoenix an emblem of our resurrection.

            Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.

            Do you believe this myth? obviously Clement of Rome did an “infallible Pope” according to Catholic Doctrine. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

            I take Isaiah 8:20 as a source for how I’m to treat what someone says. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

            You said, “So I said NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE WHEN JESUS WAS BORN, and then you sent me an article saying YES WE DO, but I scroll down to the bottom of that article and it says this: ‘When was Yeshua born? Nothing is absolutely certain, because we are dealing with implications and assumptions, but a good guess from the Scriptures and history is September 29, 5 B.C.E.'”

            We know for certain from scriptures that Yeshua was not born in the winter. No one knows when Yeshua was born scientifically or from biblical revelation, however we know from ascertaining from the biblical narrative it was the first day of Sukkot! That is not in doubt! The part that you try to point out was the exact date according to the year, but not the season.

            You said, “Concerning the Obelisk, that thing was brought from Egypt early in the first century, along with a bunch of others. If you want to assign some sort of power or machination to it – have fun. It’s just an obleski to me, and there is NO worship ceremony that EVER takes place by Catholics around it. There is nothing in the Catechism that talks about an obelisk. Just as there is nothing in there that talks about the artwork in St. Peter’s Basilica.”

            Doesn’t matter what you and I think it violates scriptures because those who built it built it to the G-d Ra! Therefore it was dedicated to Ra! Obviously Pope Sixtus V attached great importance to the Obelisk when he said over it, “In nomine Patris, et Filij, et Spiritus sancti. Amen” (‘In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen’).”

            Your “it’s just an obelisk to me” is derisive especially from someone who claims to have been a Freemason for ten years. Symbols have great significance. Try using a swastika as a logo and say it’s just a swastika to you. It may work for you if you are Hindu, but not anyone else. The connotation is obvious!

            Again it doesn’t matter what you think, but what G-d thinks and what He demands.

            2 Samuel 6:6 And when they came to Nachon’s threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.

            7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.

            Wasn’t Uzzah’s intentions noble? wasn’t he trying to keep the “Ark of the Covenant” from falling off? wasn’t he ignorant of G-d’s command as was David? Do not take the word of G-d lightly. Catholicism definitely does!

            • You are quoting an encyclopedia who says that Christ ACQUIRED traits of solar deity . . . What are the logical problems with that statement from the Christian perspective who believes that Jesus is God?

              You make a statement that Pope Clement made an infallible statement. But what are the conditions for a infallible statement and how many have Popes made since Peter?

              You say you believe in sola scriptura but the Catholic Bible (all 73 books) says NOTHING about sola scriptura.

              I won’t be replying any further, but these are just questions for you to think about.

              Blessings and Shalom

            • The Saint

              Since the bible is a series of myths based on older pagan myths, it is not surprising that Jesus has many traits of pagan deities.

          • The Saint

            This is from several months ago but I hope you read these comments; your are quite laughable, no one who ‘knew’ Jesus ever wrote anything. This collapses all your credibility.

      • The Saint

        1. Wrong answer
        2. Definitely wrong answer
        3. True, or that such a character ever actually existed.
        4. Wrong answer
        5. Laughable wrong anser – look up the true definition of ‘saint.’
        6. Partly correct.
        7. Hmmm, debatable.
        Your catholic roots get in the way facts Dave.

    • The Saint

      For a while it seemed you were going to say something intelligent Marq, but you blew it by your second paragraph; the rest of your post only confirms your confusion.

      • MarqGeorge

        Where am I confused?

    • The Saint

      Thomas More was hardly a ‘saint’ he beheaded people for attempting to read the bible in their own language, English.

    The Anti-Catholic Roots of the Thanksgiving Holiday

    I

    ‘ve grown very fond of saying that ‘Everyone is Catholic on Saint Patrick’s Day’. I say that because on every March 17th, at least in the United States, you’ll find people of every sect, creed, and religion wearing green, saying ‘Happy Saint Patty’s Day’ to friends and strangers alike, and drinking and eating things that should never be the color green. And, indeed, many of these souls also happen to be some of the most anti-Catholic persons since John Calvin himself.

    It is true, along with many other things, the Catholic community has lost control of the message of what Saint Patrick and his Feast Day is all about. Whether Catholics will ever resuscitate the true meaning of that honored Feast Day will certainly come sometime after Timothy Cardinal Dolan, the Archbishop of New York, serves as Grand Marshall of the first St. Patrick’s Day in which openly homosexual groups will march; to which Cardinal applauds (bravo), saying, “I have no trouble with the decision at all … I think the decision is a wise one.”

    The Calvinistic and Anti-Catholic Roots of Thanksgiving Day

    At least Catholics aren’t alone in losing control over the original purpose of one of their most honored celebrations. Originally, Thanksgiving Days were the Protestant response to the litany of Catholic Church Holy Days, which required the faithful to attend Mass. Two years after King Henry VIII (1491-1547) had consecrated the Church of England – making himself the supreme head, and during the same year (1536 – perhaps the initial height of the formal repression of Catholicism and Catholics in England) that his Parliament passed the Act Against the Pope’s Authority, Henry also established his church’s own calendar with only 27 Holy Days.

    Yet, King Henry’s reforms were not enough for the Puritans, who desired to completely do away with all Church Holy Days, including Christmas and Easter. Their idea was to replace all Holy Days with Days of Fasting or Days of Thanksgiving. Days of Fasting would be for repentance after unexpected disasters, while Days of Thanksgiving would be celebrated after clear evidence of God’s favor, such as when a Day of Thanksgiving was celebrated in 1606 after the failure of the Gunpowder Plot the year before. Eventually this annual Day of Thanksgiving became known as Guy Fawkes Day, and is still celebrated in parts of England.

    The other heights of repression of Catholicism in England, when the ‘penal laws’ were either strengthened or virgorously reinforced include:

  • In 1581 an Act of Parliament made reconciliation to the Catholic Church treason, in response to numbers of evangelizing priests and missionary Jesuits arriving between 1574 and 1580.
  • In 1585 an Act of Parliament declared it to be treason the very presence of a Catholic priest in England, and made it a felony for anyone to shelter or assist a priest. Treason and felonies were capital crimes, and many Catholics suffered death due to these new laws.
  • In 1588 after the failure of the Spanish Armada, which intended to overthrow of Queen Elizabeth I, the anti-Catholic ‘penal laws’ were again enforced without exception. Of the 85 English-Catholic martyrs, 66 suffered between the years of 1584 and 1691.
  • Yet, it was the aforementioned Gunpowder Plot on the 5th of November 1605 that aroused anti-Catholic sentiment around the time that the rigorist Puritans were ready to bring their hatred against Catholics to New England. Of the 85 English-Catholic martyrs, 9 died after the Gunpowder Plot.
  • Thanksgiving Day Comes to New England & the State Takes it Over

    Two things should be made clear at this point. The first is the that the English Protestant ‘Reformation’ was not only a theological reform of Catholicism, but it was also an intelligent war and an institutionalized partisanship against Catholics. The second is that, the Puritans and the Pilgrims believed that the English Protestant ‘Reform’ had not gone far enough. They were completely dissatisfied with the tolerance that the Church of England showed towards Catholic ‘practices’. They were demanding a church that was pure from the influence of all Catholic teaching. Succinctly, the Puritans adopted Calvinism theology; which Chesterton called in his Eugenics and Other Evils “immoral” and “the most non-Christian of Christian systems.

    The small group of ‘Pilgrims’ who settled the Plymouth Colony in Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1620 were a conglomeration of early separatists from the Church of England, who were seeking refuge from conflicts in England that eventually led up to the English Civil War. The overall opinion that this group would have had of the Catholic Church was very close to that of Puritans, who began immigrating to New England and 1620, and established the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1629.

    In Massachusetts in 1621 there was a good harvest, which according to the anti-Catholic tradition of the Englanders, demanded that there be a Day of Thanksgiving held in response to God’s good favor shown to them. This was the very first Day of Thanksgiving, and whether any Native Americans were there are not remains disputed. Nevertheless, by the late 1660’s the Day of Thanksgiving for good harvest would be an annual occurrence in New England, with both church and state leaders offering their proclamations of the day. During the American Revolution political leaders began announcing Day of the Thanksgiving in response to God showing them favor in battle. President George Washington proclaimed the first nationwide thanksgiving celebration on November 26, 1789, “as a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favours of Almighty God.”

    While the clear roots of Thanksgiving Day proclamations are Calvinistic and religious and exclusively for offering thanks to God for showing favor, today the national holiday in the United States is marked with the President issuing a proclamation and ‘pardoning’ a turkey for life.

    Giving Thanks for Conclusions

    After Anglicanism became the official religion in Virginia, a band of Puritans left there in 1642 for Maryland, where they founded Providence – a fitting name of city of Calvinists. It would later be renamed Annapolis (named after the Protestant Queen Anne). In the late 1600’s and early 1700’s the Puritan revolution government had seized governance of Maryland and began violating the Maryland Toleration Act of 1649, which established tolerance of various forms of Christianity. These Puritans persecuted Maryland Catholics by burning down all the original Catholic Churches in southern Maryland, and moved the seat of government from the St. Mary’s City to Annapolis.

    Could you imagine these Catholics celebrating the Puritan’s Thanksgiving Day? I couldn’t. Could you imagine these Puritans celebrating a Day of Thanksgiving after burning down those Catholic Churches? I could! And here we are, many centuries later, celebrating the most anti-Catholic holiday of all.

    While Catholics in the United States have lost control of the message of Saint Patrick’s Day and Saint Valentine’s Day, and are starting to lose control of the message of Christmas, we certainly have to be thankful to God that Protestants have lost their message of Thanksgiving Day! Let us pray that they rediscover it where Christ Jesus intended – in the thank-offering (todah) of the Holy Eucharist! 😀


    Summary
    The Anti-Catholic Roots of the Thanksgiving Holiday
    Article Name
    The Anti-Catholic Roots of the Thanksgiving Holiday
    Description
    The roots of the Thanksgiving Holiday are clearly Protestant and Anti-Catholic. Lets give thanks that Protestants have lost control of that message.
    Author
    Publisher Name
    Saint Dominic's Media, Inc.
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